Athanasian Creed - The Man-Made Doctrine

[2timothy316]

For clarity, is the Athanasian Creed found here https://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/c ... sian-creed the accepted belief of the trinity for all trinitarians?
If not what is? Who is reading this creed for the first time? Who considers it to be holy scripture?

The creed ends with "one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully."
If it isn't scripture...How do they have the authority to say such a thing?

[2timothy316]

As to how a being can be begotten and not created, they weren’t using vocabulary.com’s definition (or English for that matter). Being ‘begotten’ refers to being of the same substance, so it doesn’t directly address whether one began to exist (was created) or not.

Who made this up?

Who made what up? What “begotten” meant? It was a Greek word that Christians used to talk about Jesus’ one-of-a-kind relationship with the Father based on their understanding of Jesus’ life and teachings.

Who made this up as well? Where does this come from? Is there a reference I can read up on this?

[The Tanager]

"Correct view" you say. Clear this up for me. You mean one must believe in the basic belief of the trinity to be saved right?

No, I’m saying the complete opposite. I’m explicitly saying one doesn’t have to have the correct/true view of God’s nature (trinitarian or not) to be saved. I’m saying one can be wrong about the trinity and still be saved.

Who made this up as well? Where does this come from? Is there a reference I can read up on this?

It comes from scholarship. Read just about any of the scholarship that moves across denominations/religions.

[2timothy316]

"Correct view" you say. Clear this up for me. You mean one must believe in the basic belief of the trinity to be saved right?

No, I’m saying the complete opposite. I’m explicitly saying one doesn’t have to have the correct/true view of God’s nature (trinitarian or not) to be saved. I’m saying one can be wrong about the trinity and still be saved.

Who made this up as well? Where does this come from? Is there a reference I can read up on this?

It comes from scholarship. Read just about any of the scholarship that moves across denominations/religions.

What gives them the authority to say there is a trinity at all?

[The Tanager]

What gives them the authority to say there is a trinity at all?

The Bible, if the Bible teaches the Trinity, which Trinitarians believe it does.

[2timothy316]

What gives them the authority to say there is a trinity at all?

The Bible, if the Bible teaches the Trinity, which Trinitarians believe it does.

The word trinity isn't even in the Bible. They made that word up. Why look for a trinity at all? No one was looking for a trinity or teaching the trinity while John, Matthew, or Paul was alive. Why isn't the creed scripture then if it is so important? Or is it even important, if salvation doesn't even depend on it?

[The Tanager]

The word trinity isn't even in the Bible. They made that word up. Why look for a trinity at all? No one was looking for a trinity or teaching the trinity while John, Matthew, or Paul was alive. Why isn't the creed scripture then if it is so important? Or is it even important, if salvation doesn't even depend on it?

Okay, so to make sure we aren't just throwing various critiques out and seeing what sticks, please clarify where you stand on the issues we've already discussed, to see if we should move on or keep talking about the original critiques.

1. Do all trinitarians accept everything the Athanasian creed claims? No. Do you agree or disagree?

2. Even of those who accept the Athanasian creed, is it viewed as scripture? No. Do you agree or disagree?

3. Then what is the CLAIMED source of the trinity belief for most (if not all) trinitarians? The Bible. Do you agree or disagree? Notice, this is talking about the claimed source, not whether the Bible actually teaches it.

4. Can something be "begotten" but "uncreated"? Yes. Do you agree or disagree? Notice, this is talking about if something could be, based on the meanings the people using these terms have for those words, not whether something actually is begotten and uncreated.

5. Is the fact of different trinitarian explanations evidence that the trinity itself is false? No. Do you agree or disagree?

6. Do you have to believe/reject the trinity (whichever is right) in order to be saved? I say "no," that the Bible doesn't say salvation depends on that, but only whether one accepts Jesus as the Messiah, the Lord, the Savior. Do you agree or disagree?

Once we understand each other on the above six things, I'd be happy to move on to the next ones:

7. Does the Bible actually teach the trinity?

8. Can important things not be scripture?

9. Are the only important things, things necessary for salvation?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #16]

What I believe isn't relevant. Only thing that is relevant is the trinity teaching and why this creed is there at all and why does it carry any authority.

[The Tanager]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #16]

What I believe isn't relevant. Only thing that is relevant is the trinity teaching and why this creed is there at all and why does it carry any authority.

Okay, then, at least for the purposes of this thread, we’ll just have to assume that you are dropping your previous critiques as valid. So, (1) not all trinitarians accept all that the Athanasian creed claims, (2) it isn’t viewed as scripture even by those who do, (3) the claimed source of the trinity belief is the Bible, (4) something can be ‘begotten’ and ‘uncreated’, (5) having different explanations of the trinity that go beyond “one being in three persons” is not good evidence that God is not triune, and (6) salvation doesn’t depend on one’s acceptance of the trinity, much less the perfect understanding of what the trinity all entails and this isn’t a problem for the trinity.

So (7) does the Bible teach the trinity? Since you are claiming the trinity is man-made, feel free to mount an argument that the Bible doesn’t teach the trinity. Prove your claim that no one taught the divinity and oneness of Father, Son, and Spirit while John, Matthew, or Paul was alive. Trinitarians don’t believe people went looking for the trinity, but that it calls from the Biblical pages.

(8) Why do you think anything that is important must be moved to the category of “scripture”? I don’t get the connection there.

(9) Why do you think salvation requirements are the only important things in reality? I don’t get that connection either.

[onewithhim]

I do not think the creed is holy scripture or that its acceptance is required for salvation. The most accepted creed for trinitarians would probably be the Niceno-Constantinople Creed, but it also isn’t holy scripture or required for salvation either.

As to how a being can be begotten and not created, they weren’t using vocabulary.com’s definition (or English for that matter). Being ‘begotten’ refers to being of the same substance, so it doesn’t directly address whether one began to exist (was created) or not.

The common English definition of "begotten" is: (1)Procreated, (2)Given rise to; caused

Therefore it can be said that Jesus was "procreated, or, "caused." He was the first and only thing created by God Himself. Everything else was created through Jesus.

"He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;because by means of him all other things were created..." (Colossians 1:15,16)

[onewithhim]

What gives them the authority to say there is a trinity at all?

The Bible, if the Bible teaches the Trinity, which Trinitarians believe it does.

But the Bible does not teach the trinity. It is something thought up by "Christian" disciples at the end of the first century and on into the fourth century when it became doctrine. I have comments from a Catholic encyclopedia that admit that the trinity doctrine is not a teaching by the earliest disciples and the only thing in the Bible that even hints at a trinity is Matthew 28:19. That is it. And it says nothing about them all being equal. "Scholarship" will lead one to this fact, if one delves deeply enough.