' Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.'

[Masterblaster]

Hello

Matthew 7:20
'Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.'

Are Christian's easily recognizable?
Are they obligated to act as examples?
Are they dramatically inconspicuous?
Are they dismally failing, and if so. WHY?

[Masterblaster]

Hello

Matthew 5:14 “Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick, and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in Heaven."

That is question 2 answered, at least.

What do you think?

[TRANSPONDER]

There is (or was) a plague of building scammers around our way. Not even Cowboy builders who at least do a job badly, but scammers who try to get money for a job and then don't do it.

Their mo is to be all smiles, handshakes, cheap compliments and protestations about how honest they are.

I don't see the Christian schtich of big smiles and friendly approach, while spewing out a string of lies, as anything but rotten fruit. Of course as soon as there is any serious questioning, the kite goes up and it's all scowls, insults and abuse.

Don't be fooled by this superficial nice guy facade. I have seen the intolerant hatefulness underneath, and not too far under the skin either. And I'd say that anyone looking at some of my recent exchanges with abusing denialists have seen it, too.

The other aspect is of social results. Never mind the old holy wars, Inquisitions and crusades which Religion impatiently waves away as irrelevant, but general social influence. I'm not even talking about the building scammers of religion - Televangelicals, faith -healers and Millionaire missionaries. Nor even the damage caused to science by science - denial fundamentalism, and I'll even skip over the Catholic church still pretending to be a force for good, after a scandalous cover - up of abuse, or even the heinous effort to infiltrate non - science into the science -classroom or insulate kids from any kind of proper education in Christian homeschooling. Or for that matter, the pernicious influence of religion on politics, and not only in the US but particularly now in the US, but just in society, where church and Bible influences everything.

For good or for bad? Here in Yurrup, it isn't so divisive. Nobody talks about religion or church, whereas I gather in the US that is the first thing that comes up in casual chat. The entire social ethos is actually directed to grabbing and keeping people indoctrinated with religion from infancy to old age and seeing that approved religion is all they get. So even the immutable laws of the sainted Founders of the US, separation of Church and state and a somewhat cynical Deism by most of them, are dismissed and the Constitution is rewritten as surely as the ghost Bible to say what they want it to say, not what it does or does not say. Like a mention of God supposedly means that the government should be run according to the Bible (whichever one is preferred).

Lucy "I found it!"

Linus "What?"

"Sister! I found the word sister in the Bible!"

"So what?"

"So it means you have you give me a present."

[Masterblaster]

Hello TRANSPONDER

Thank You, for responding to this thread. I agree with almost all of what you say. It should be a real concern for Christians that your truthful assessment of their efforts is so negative. If this was a TripAdvisor review it would warrant a visit from Gordon Ramsey.
I honestly do not think that they are influenced by objective observations.

The shooting at the Chiefs Celebration did not change gun laws. The Catholic sex scandal did not lead to females entering the priesthood or to a change in celibacy laws within the priesthood, either. The atrocities of the past are also ignored.

Why not have a Burned Witches Day, where we cry with shame to purge our innate barbarity. Can we not see our own barbarism when confronted with a man nailed to the wood of the cross,..after all the doctrine is that our sins made the nails. We learned nothing from our Inquisitions except how to scare ourselves. No apologies!, just faux-sincerity.

You said this, TRANSPONDER- "The other aspect is of social results"
The truth is that Christian's are cruising. It is as tired and complacent as an old house pet. Gone is the fervour of building a city on a hill with a watchtower beacon of light for the lost. I accept your critique, T, and I thank you for taking the time to write it.

[JehovahsWitness]

I don't think Jesus meant True Christianity would be free from "bad apples": even he (Jesus) turned out to have a liar, a thief and a traitor amongst his 12 chosen Apostles; in other words just because 8% of the group was corrupt, this didnt mean they weren't God's people ( Indeed, even Almighty God himself had a third of the angels that proved corrupt and ultimately violent sexual perverts).

Rather than the True religion being totally free from unscrupulous individuals, Jesus said true would be identifiable by its doctrine and official policy properly reflecting Jesus teaching of LOVE and its members being known to show the world that an interrnational, interracial loving brotherhood immune from divisive nationalism , tribalsim and war is possible.

By this everyone will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another.” - JESUS CHRIST [John 13:35]

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

To read more please go to other posts related to...

CHRISTIANITY , CHRISTIAN and ...CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS

[Masterblaster]

Hello JehovahsWitness

You say - "Rather than the True religion being totally free from unscrupulous individuals, Jesus said true would be identifiable by its doctrine and official policy properly reflecting Jesus teaching of LOVE and its members being known to show the world that an interrnational, interracial loving brotherhood immune from divisive nationalism , tribalsim and war is possible."
-------
This is all, 'a bit of a mouthful' to me, but never the less I thank you for your contribution to this thread.
I use the collective noun Christians, because they all talk about the same person, and the associated narrative about him, from the same book. They are all branches of the same tree, in my simple opinion. Others might disagree.

Let me run with your account, JW. It is full of interest to me. I'm intrigued by the scripture regarding the sexually perverted Angels. Show me that. What is a brotherhood?. I can't find that in the NT. Where does Jesus talk about Nationalism, Tribalism ,or War?
What had Jesus to say about Official Policy?
Are you referring to the quote where he states that not one jot or dot of the Judaic Law ,is to be changed.

In short, are your ideas primarily identifiable by their offness to the mainstream. Are you rogue from the Christian pack. How do you see it. Disunity within Christianity hardly helps it's shared cause, don't you think. Does the JW faith tolerate disunity? Could I ask my questions from within it's confines?
Are Christians a single definable entity?
Is any sect of Christianity homogenous to itself or is it a conglomerate of associated individuals without any real accountability amongst themselves.

Has this Jesus left a trail of particles , akin to that of Hayley's Comet. That would explain much of the anonymity that Christian endeavour seems to have in our modern world. Jesus appears to be almost non existent in any real sense. IMHO

Matthew 12:25 “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand"

[TRANSPONDER]

Hello TRANSPONDER

Thank You, for responding to this thread. I agree with almost all of what you say. It should be a real concern for Christians that your truthful assessment of their efforts is so negative. If this was a TripAdvisor review it would warrant a visit from Gordon Ramsey.
I honestly do not think that they are influenced by objective observations.

The shooting at the Chiefs Celebration did not change gun laws. The Catholic sex scandal did not lead to females entering the priesthood or to a change in celibacy laws within the priesthood, either. The atrocities of the past are also ignored.

Why not have a Burned Witches Day, where we cry with shame to purge our innate barbarity. Can we not see our own barbarism when confronted with a man nailed to the wood of the cross,..after all the doctrine is that our sins made the nails. We learned nothing from our Inquisitions except how to scare ourselves. No apologies!, just faux-sincerity.

You said this, TRANSPONDER- "The other aspect is of social results"
The truth is that Christian's are cruising. It is as tired and complacent as an old house pet. Gone is the fervour of building a city on a hill with a watchtower beacon of light for the lost. I accept your critique, T, and I thank you for taking the time to write it.

I thank you for the very generous response. I reciprocate. Christianity could well say 'This is not the fault of Christianity, but of men'. This is fair. Just because misguided or malicious or greedy men were (or are) messing it up does not in itself disprove Christianity. In short, we may know them by their fruits, but not necessarily know Christianity.

Thus the bad record argument is only a counter to a claim for 'Christianity makes us better' (part of the 'We need it, true or not' package). It is a response to Christianity trying to claim the high moral ground.

That does not disprove Christianity and never did. That is a different argument altogether.

[JumpingJackFlash]

Hello

Matthew 7:20
'Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.'

Are Christian's easily recognizable?
Are they obligated to act as examples?
Are they dramatically inconspicuous?
Are they dismally failing, and if so. WHY?

It is real simple to the wise.
Ask yourself this question:
what happened to all them churches
that the apostles started back in the day?
Where did they all go? Can you find any of them
still in existence today?

NO YOU CAN'T, WHY NOT?

[Masterblaster]

Hello JumpingJackFlash

Lies have their own dynamic. Well meaning people can adopt a lie. A lie can evolve into a normative truth over time. It's DNA origins may have been, a half-truth. Lies are only absolute when intentionally crafted for a specific purpose.
If I say that modern consumerism is a lie then I must consider this subjective summation of mine, within the context that the notion of bartering and trading necessities is a rational and useful endeavour ,for mankind generally.

I have been reading about the early churches lately.
Their basic interpretations of Jesus and his message were, shanghaied, suppressed, and ignored, in various degrees. Their tenets of faith were removed from an evolving canon. As you correctly state, ...where are they now?

Their legacy is miniscule, within Christian history but it is not gone. I think about the most recent dissident Alexei Navalny and hope that his fight against beaurocratic lies was not in vain.

[JumpingJackFlash]

Hello JumpingJackFlash

Lies have their own dynamic. Well meaning people can adopt a lie. A lie can evolve into a normative truth over time. It's DNA origins may have been, a half-truth. Lies are only absolute when intentionally crafted for a specific purpose.
If I say that modern consumerism is a lie then I must consider this subjective summation of mine, within the context that the notion of bartering and trading necessities is a rational and useful endeavour ,for mankind generally.

I have been reading about the early churches lately.
Their basic interpretations of Jesus and his message were, shanghaied, suppressed, and ignored, in various degrees. Their tenents of faith were removed from an evolving canon. As you correctly state, ...where are they now?

Their legacy is miniscule, within Christian history but it is not gone. I think about the most recent dissident Alexei Navalny and hope that his fight against beaurocratic lies was not in vain.

Even if something is in vain, it served it's purpose.
And a lie can only be made the truth by God, not by man.