Who strains at a gnat, and swallows a camel.?

[Masterblaster]

Is theology suffocating belief in God.
Is religious doctrine logically effective.
Is religious debate an egoistic indulgence, devoid of purpose?

[Masterblaster]

“Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others."

This is not pretty doctrine. This is not a criticism that has lost any of its resonance. Do not stand in the way. Speak from wisdom and not impulse.

[TRANSPONDER]

In the end, it is human. Human behavior.. And that is as complex as religious. Prayer is a universal action even in places that never had the Bible. So while one might argue that theological debate is not only pointless but ruining what Faith is all about, doing it right and even being in the right group, becomes important.

"What? You believe in God, and you think you're saved, even though you're getting in bed with your aunt?" Paul soon found out that Jesusfaith did not make everyone perfect and sinless and he had to step in and Beg, Appeal and Sorrow about the stuff his converts were getting up to.

But there's still something to be said for one who just has a simple faith that has them playing 'Amazing Grace' on the bagpipes. But then, why is that different from someone in another country worshipping Vishnu on Faith?

"But that's completely different! They've got dozens of Gods"

"Now, don't get misdirected into Theology, just stick to Faith."

[Masterblaster]

Hello TRANSPONDER
Thank You for responding to this topic.
You say - In the end, it is human
I totally agree. Our honourable intentions are deflected by our vanities and weaknesses.
The general problem is that this dumb activity evolves into having nuisance value. Jesus saw it as an arrogant form of obstuctionism.. I think skeptics, if sincerely motivated, are entitled to highlight and harass theistic clumsiness, at will. We should assign a hunting season for this.
I imagine Christianity in all its forms as an ant colony, on the march. The Jesus message is the vital queen in this colony. Without this there is indeed nothing.The colony has gone down rabbit holes , it has gone up trees but still it has not relinquished its precious load,the Jesus message.

Somebody playing bagpipes to Amazing Grace deserves what they get.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Masterblaster in post #1

Is theology suffocating belief in God.

I would say that it's more likely organized religions suffocating belief in God and that a theology free of hierarchical dictates and authoritarian presumptions can be a liberating force.

[Masterblaster]

[Replying to Masterblaster in post #1

Is theology suffocating belief in God.

I would say that it's more likely organized religions suffocating belief in God and that a theology free of hierarchical dictates and authoritarian presumptions can be a liberating force.

Hello Athetotheist
You make a very good point. The general structure of the evolved theology-doctrine must be sound. If you take an example of a modern burdensome doctrine where at one point you are loving your neighbour and the next minute you are praying to get them out of Purgatory. The layers of this doctrine are sedimentary and are layered on a bedrock of resurrection belief. You are going to Heaven. I think it should be different., each evolving doctrine should be pinned to a core principal of love for all through God. As it is ,you have these big chunks of boulders like Hell/Heaven, Sin, Damnation and Divine Vengfulness that require the straining for gnats to justify them. When you swallow a camel, the rest follows.

Love each other, as I have loved you.

[TRANSPONDER]

Hello TRANSPONDER
Thank You for responding to this topic.
You say - In the end, it is human
I totally agree. Our honourable intentions are deflected by our vanities and weaknesses.
The general problem is that this dumb activity evolves into having nuisance value. Jesus saw it as an arrogant form of obstuctionism.. I think skeptics, if sincerely motivated, are entitled to highlight and harass theistic clumsiness, at will. We should assign a hunting season for this.
I imagine Christianity in all its forms as an ant colony, on the march. The Jesus message is the vital queen in this colony. Without this there is indeed nothing.The colony has gone down rabbit holes , it has gone up trees but still it has not relinquished its precious load,the Jesus message.

Somebody playing bagpipes to Amazing Grace deserves what they get.

I see that differently as you can imagine. Christianity like other religions marches on as you say, looking neither left nor right, looking straight ahead, not listening to anything else, declaiming its' beliefs. Other than the declamation, 'Ant colony' is quite apposite.

Skeptics have this annoying habit of doubting and questioning - the great enemies of unquestioning Faith. I see value in doing that and can only trust that others will and the denial of Faith as mere 'obstructionism' as you call it.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Masterblaster in post #1

Is theology suffocating belief in God.

I would say that it's more likely organized religions suffocating belief in God and that a theology free of hierarchical dictates and authoritarian presumptions can be a liberating force.

Hello Athetotheist
You make a very good point. The general structure of the evolved theology-doctrine must be sound. If you take an example of a modern burdensome doctrine where at one point you are loving your neighbour and the next minute you are praying to get them out of Purgatory. The layers of this doctrine are sedimentary and are layered on a bedrock of resurrection belief. You are going to Heaven. I think it should be different., each evolving doctrine should be pinned to a core principal of love for all through God. As it is ,you have these big chunks of boulders like Hell/Heaven, Sin, Damnation and Divine Vengfulness that require the straining for gnats to justify them. When you swallow a camel, the rest follows.

Love each other, as I have loved you.

Already we have a problem. How can one evolve doctrine other than by questioning the existing one. The problem I see with the US type Christianity (but also its' strength) is the lack of a doctrinal authority. Anyone can invent their own theology and peddle it. Those who are persuaded are very dedicated to it, which is (I suggest) why it stays strong in the US while it is struggling a bit over here. But bit does lead people to think they can just make up their own doctrine. We see an awful lot of that on this board alone. And a lot of that is awful. Principle of love for God and your neighbour as yourself sounds fine, assuming one believes in Biblegod anyway, though Faithbased Christianity assumes that a given.

And I can only applaud rejection of hellthreat as producing too much cognitive dissonance that a loving doctrine sounds so much like hate. But already you produce problems. Does that mean everyone gets to heaven? Then why do we need religion?

Because society will collapse without it? Ha ha. That one's been pushed enough but doesn't stand up to question.

It's the problem: Christianity might go for the simplefaith line, but it can't avoid questions, and it has to produce answers because if they don't, the skeptics will.

[Wootah]

Because society will collapse without it? Ha ha. That one's been pushed enough but doesn't stand up to question.

Communism. Russia. Good grief.

[Masterblaster]

Hello
The administration of religion, justice and politics has become a layering of protocols,precedents and rules. This displays the ingenuity of the human mind, alongside its shortcomings. I think that the Jesus criticism was a reference to arrogant ineptitude. Hypocrisy should not be an effective leadership quality. These Temple visitors are often referred to as sheep. Are they stupid, do they need minding are they irrelevant. What camel was eaten whole. Why does Jesus assess this as not working, is it just a populist cheap shot by him or the writer.