Three days /three nights and the Pharisees

[rstrats]

When responding to the Pharisees, why do you suppose the Messiah made the specific point that He would be in the "heart of the earth" for 3 days and 3 nights?

[boatsnguitars]

... I am not questioning the legitimacy of the Bible. ...

Very wise of you. Since the bible is authoritive in this subforum it is a reasonable request that you support your theory with scripture. It is not an unintersting hypothesis that the bible is presenting Christs death as an metaphor for sleep and was hoping for something substanial in support this interpretation. Since I see no scriptures at all in in relation to this, I see no reason to take your argument seriously.

Why wasn't his death idiomatic? He could have been sleeping in a cave for 3 days and nights - "dead to the world".

... you must allow others to see idiom and metaphor within the Sacred Document that is the Bible...

This is not the Vatican and I am not the Pope; its therefore not a question of "allowing" people to see something (people can of course see whatever they wish, regardless of whether it is reality there or not) but this is a debate forum and if someone chooses to propose an interpretation then they should at the very least be willing to support their position with the relevant scripture.

I can see absolutely no relevance in a critique of the New World Translation to the question under discussion.

JW

You are criticizing my, and others, interpretation of the Bible, which includes acknowledging Reality - that the Bible was written as allegory after Paul. If a religion teaches something other than this, it is not my problem.

The fact that your Bible offers a wrong interpretation of the facts is not my issue. It's an issue for the Mods as you are questioning the authority of the Bible by offering a completely fantastical tale that it never intended to convey.

There is nothing in the Bible that asks us to deny reality. Or, are you suggesting otherwise?

[JehovahsWitness]

... I am not questioning the legitimacy of the Bible. ...

Very wise of you. Since the bible is authoritive in this subforum it is a reasonable request that you support your theory with scripture. It is not an unintersting hypothesis that the bible is presenting Christs death as an metaphor for sleep and was hoping for something substanial in support this interpretation. Since I see no scriptures at all in in relation to this, I see no reason to take your argument seriously.

Why wasn't his death idiomatic? He could have been sleeping in a cave for 3 days and nights - "dead to the world".

... you must allow others to see idiom and metaphor within the Sacred Document that is the Bible...

This is not the Vatican and I am not the Pope; its therefore not a question of "allowing" people to see something (people can of course see whatever they wish, regardless of whether it is reality there or not) but this is a debate forum and if someone chooses to propose an interpretation then they should at the very least be willing to support their position with the relevant scripture.

I can see absolutely no relevance in a critique of the New World Translation to the question under discussion.

JW

You are criticizing my, and others, interpretation of the Bible....

I'm not criticizing it perse , I'm saying I see no scriptural support for your position and requesting you present some. You can use any bible translation you desire, but present some scripture. Is that not reasonable enough? You propose an allegoric death and execution of Christ. Fine. But do you understand that just saying something (and pointing to a Bishop) is not the presentation of evidence thereof? Present some scriptural support for your position. Really does that sound like an unreasonable request?

[boatsnguitars]

... I am not questioning the legitimacy of the Bible. ...

Very wise of you. Since the bible is authoritive in this subforum it is a reasonable request that you support your theory with scripture. It is not an unintersting hypothesis that the bible is presenting Christs death as an metaphor for sleep and was hoping for something substanial in support this interpretation. Since I see no scriptures at all in in relation to this, I see no reason to take your argument seriously.

Why wasn't his death idiomatic? He could have been sleeping in a cave for 3 days and nights - "dead to the world".

... you must allow others to see idiom and metaphor within the Sacred Document that is the Bible...

This is not the Vatican and I am not the Pope; its therefore not a question of "allowing" people to see something (people can of course see whatever they wish, regardless of whether it is reality there or not) but this is a debate forum and if someone chooses to propose an interpretation then they should at the very least be willing to support their position with the relevant scripture.

I can see absolutely no relevance in a critique of the New World Translation to the question under discussion.

JW

You are criticizing my, and others, interpretation of the Bible, which includes acknowledging Reality - that the Bible was written as allegory after Paul. If a religion teaches something other than this, it is not my problem.

The fact that your Bible offers a wrong interpretation of the facts is not my issue. It's an issue for the Mods as you are questioning the authority of the Bible by offering a completely fantastical tale that it never intended to convey.

There is nothing in the Bible that asks us to deny reality. Or, are you suggesting otherwise?

I'm not criticizing it perse , I'm saying I see no scriptural support for it and requesting you present some.

IT's the whole Bible - and the knowledge of how the Bible was written, and the knowledsge of Reality.

I don't proof-text documents to come to truth. I don't parse a text into tiny quotes that I use to prop up my ignorant worldview. I don't htink anyone should - and I certainly see no reference in the Bible that says we ought to.

Finding Bible quotes to support your view is your game. I refuse to play.

You can use and bible translation you desire. Is that not reasonable enough? You propose an allegoric death and execution of Christ. Fine. But do you understand that just saying something (and pointing to a Bishop) is not the presentation of evidence thereof? Present some scriptural support for your position. Really does that sound like an unreasonable request?

The whole Bible, the facts, Reality is my support. You proof-texting, parsing phrases, pulling things out of context, ignoring history, ignoring facts of how the Bible was written - that's your game.

[JehovahsWitness]

You can use and bible translation you desire. Is that not reasonable enough? You propose an allegoric death and execution of Christ. Fine. But do you understand that just saying something (and pointing to a Bishop) is not the presentation of evidence thereof? Present some scriptural support for your position. Really does that sound like an unreasonable request?

The whole Bible...

Fine Well if its "the whole bible" you should have no trouble finding one or two specific passages (out of the 35,000 or so verses) therein to support your position.

Indeed I've actually had discussions on an allegorical resurrection in the writings of Paul but this idea of the gospel account of Jesus of Nazareth actually not dying at all (and instead taking an extended nap) is an entirely novel to me. I am requesting scripture. That's what we do over here in TD&D.

Finding Bible quotes to support your view is your game. I refuse to play.

Do you also refuse to debate?

The purpose of this subforum is to have a place to freely engage in debates on Christian theology with the basic assumption that the Bible can be used as a primary reference without the need to defend its authority.

In any case if you reconsider, feel free to post scriptural support for your interpretation on the topic.

Have a most excellent evening,



JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[onewithhim]

... I am not questioning the legitimacy of the Bible. ...

Very wise of you. Since the bible is authoritive in this subforum it is a reasonable request that you support your theory with scripture. It is not an unintersting hypothesis that the bible is presenting Christs death as an metaphor for sleep and was hoping for something substanial in support this interpretation. Since I see no scriptures at all in in relation to this, I see no reason to take your argument seriously.

Why wasn't his death idiomatic? He could have been sleeping in a cave for 3 days and nights - "dead to the world".

... you must allow others to see idiom and metaphor within the Sacred Document that is the Bible...

This is not the Vatican and I am not the Pope; its therefore not a question of "allowing" people to see something (people can of course see whatever they wish, regardless of whether it is reality there or not) but this is a debate forum and if someone chooses to propose an interpretation then they should at the very least be willing to support their position with the relevant scripture.

I can see absolutely no relevance in a critique of the New World Translation to the question under discussion.

JW

You are criticizing my, and others, interpretation of the Bible, which includes acknowledging Reality - that the Bible was written as allegory after Paul. If a religion teaches something other than this, it is not my problem.

The fact that your Bible offers a wrong interpretation of the facts is not my issue. It's an issue for the Mods as you are questioning the authority of the Bible by offering a completely fantastical tale that it never intended to convey.

There is nothing in the Bible that asks us to deny reality. Or, are you suggesting otherwise?

You keep saying "your Bible" to JW. Jehovah's Witnesses will use ANY Bible to teach the truth of matters. For a hundred years we used the King James Version and the American Standard Bible. So why are you slamming the NWT when it's not even the subject in question?

[boatsnguitars]

You can use and bible translation you desire. Is that not reasonable enough? You propose an allegoric death and execution of Christ. Fine. But do you understand that just saying something (and pointing to a Bishop) is not the presentation of evidence thereof? Present some scriptural support for your position. Really does that sound like an unreasonable request?

The whole Bible...

Fine Well if its "the whole bible" you should have no trouble finding one or two specific passages (out of the 35,000 or so verses) therein to support your position.

The specific passage that says it's allegorical? First show me where is says the talking serpent is allegorical, or, if you think that is literal, how about you show me the passage that shows the 3 days and nights is allegorical, or whatever you believe is allegorical?
The fact is, it doesn't say, "Hey, this part is allegorical" - because it's obvious.

Indeed I've actually had discussions on an allegorical resurrection in the writings of Paul but this idea of the gospel account of Jesus of Nazareth actually not dying at all (and instead taking an extended nap) is an entirely novel to me. I am requesting scripture. That's what we do over here in TD&D.

Don't care. That's not Spong's claim. Spong claims Jesus died and his soul lives in Heaven - as is written in the Bible. Particularly Paul's accounts, but throughout the Bible - allegorically.

I'm not sure how you can argue differently - knowing what we know.

[rstrats]

For clarity, I should have said evening, since evening and morning constitute a full day.

To what hours of a calendar day does evening refer?

[Eddie Ramos]

For clarity, I should have said evening, since evening and morning constitute a full day.

To what hours of a calendar day does evening refer?

WE know that the Biblical calendar begins the new day with evening and then morning. Evening identifying with the 12 hours of night and morning with the 12 hours of the day. Jesus confirms that the work day consists of 12 hours, meaning that the night time, when no one can work, also consists of 12 hours, making a full day 24 hrs, as it has always been.

John 11:9–10 (KJV 1900)
Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. 10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

The Bible also gives us some scriptures which help us place the beginning of the new day at evening, which is 6pm. From 6 PM till 6 AM are the "night" time period that are also known as "night watches" and are broken down into quarters.

Mark 13:35 (KJV 1900)
Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

Even = 6pm - 9pm
Midnight = 9pm - 12am
Cockcrowing = 12am - 3am
Morning = 3am - 6am

Now, the following verse helps us to know that we are understanding the 4 quarters properly, as we're told that Mary came to the sepulchre early in the morning. That would mean that she came between 3 - 6 am, but probably closer to 3 since it says early in the morning. That would confirm that it was certainly still dark during that time, as the verse states.

John 20:1 (KJV 1900)
The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

The day time hours are broken up a little differently, they're broken up into hours of the day.

Matthew 20:1–9 (KJV 1900)
For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. 2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. 5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? 7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive. 8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. 9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

So, the Bible defines "early in the morning" two ways. One is wile it is yet dark, and the other is when the workday begins (sun up). SO, the 12 hour workday is broken up this way:

1st hour = 6-7 am
2nd hour = 7-8 am
3rd hour = 8-9 am
4th hour = 9-10 am
5th hour = 10-11 am
6th hour = 11-noon
7th hour = noon-1pm
8th hour = 1-2 pm
9th hour = 2-3 pm
10th hour = 3-4 pm
11th hour = 4-5 pm
12th hour = 5-6 pm

[rstrats]

WE know that the Biblical calendar begins the new day with evening and then morning. Evening identifying with the 12 hours of night and morning with the 12 hours of the day...The Bible also gives us some scriptures which help us place the beginning of the new day at evening, which is 6pm. From 6 PM till 6 AM are the "night" time period...

OK, I was just confused when you said three times that afternoon was night time.

[rstrats]

No where in the Bible does God specify that "the heart of the earth" is to be understood as "the ground" or "his grave".

I should have prefaced the OP by saying that its question is based on the assumption that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to when the Messiah's spirt left His body.