Scablands and a catastrophic flood

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Scablands and a catastrophic flood

Post #1

Post by otseng »

Image
https://hugefloods.com/Scablands.html
"It was the biggest flood in the world for which there is geological evidence," writes Norman Maclean in A River Runs Through It, referring to the catastrophic deluge that tore through the Pacific Northwest every time Glacial Lake Missoula's ice dam gave way. "t was so vast a geological event that the mind of man could only conceive of it but could not prove it until photographs could be taken from Earth satellites." Proof now in hand, geologists today point to numerous features in the landscape that reveal the extreme scale and violence involved in these truly colossal floods.

Mystery of the Megaflood

J. Harlen Bretz, who theorized that the Washington Scablands was formed by a catastrophic flood, was of course first met with intense opposition.

Bretz conducted meticulous research and published many papers during the 1920s describing the Channeled Scablands. His theories of how they were formed required short but immense water flows, for which Bretz had no explanation (the source of the water was never the focus of his research). Bretz's theories met with vehement opposition from geologists of the day, who tried to explain the features with uniformitarianism theories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scablands

However, it is now commonly accepted among scientists that the Scablands was formed by a catastrophic flood (which I think this by itself is very interesting). And not only that, it was formed relatively recently too - around 15000 years ago (which also is very interesting).

Questions which I'd like to discuss:

Where did the water come from?
If a catastrophic flood created the Scablands in a short period of time, couldn't other geological features elsewhere be also created in a short amount of time?

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Re: Scablands and a catastrophic flood

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Post by Goat »

otseng wrote:Image
"It was the biggest flood in the world for which there is geological evidence," writes Norman Maclean in A River Runs Through It, referring to the catastrophic deluge that tore through the Pacific Northwest every time Glacial Lake Missoula's ice dam gave way. "t was so vast a geological event that the mind of man could only conceive of it but could not prove it until photographs could be taken from Earth satellites." Proof now in hand, geologists today point to numerous features in the landscape that reveal the extreme scale and violence involved in these truly colossal floods.

Mystery of the Megaflood

J. Harlen Bretz, who theorized that the Washington Scablands was formed by a catastrophic flood, was of course first met with intense opposition.

Bretz conducted meticulous research and published many papers during the 1920s describing the Channeled Scablands. His theories of how they were formed required short but immense water flows, for which Bretz had no explanation (the source of the water was never the focus of his research). Bretz's theories met with vehement opposition from geologists of the day, who tried to explain the features with uniformitarianism theories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scablands

However, it is now commonly accepted among scientists that the Scablands was formed by a catastrophic flood (which I think this by itself is very interesting). And not only that, it was formed relatively recently too - around 15000 years ago (which also is very interesting).

Questions which I'd like to discuss:

Where did the water come from?
If a catastrophic flood created the Scablands in a short period of time, couldn't other geological features elsewhere be also created in a short amount of time?


Yes, there are. There is the black sea, changes caused by volcano's, tsunami's.

The end of the ice age caused a lot f geological features to change.

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Scablands and a catastrophic flood

Post #3

Post by Rob »

otseng wrote:Questions which I'd like to discuss:

1) Where did the water come from?

2) If a catastrophic flood created the Scablands in a short period of time, couldn't other geological features elsewhere be also created in a short amount of time?
This is an interesting story, and one I am very familiar with. It is a great example of the value of history of science too in understanding the true nature of how science as a human adventure is actually carried out within the community of scientists. I will be in future posts drawing upon an excellent resource, John Allen and Majorie Burns book called Cataclysms of the Columbia.

We now know conclusively the source of the water. It was first revealed in a rather low key paper entitled "Unusual Currents in Lake Missoula" presented at a Geological Society of Washington meeting in 1927. In this meeting, a fellow named Thomas Pardee purportedly turned to his friend and said, "I know where Bretz's flood came from." (Allen 2002: 56) Purdee argued that a great ice dam created by the encroaching "lobe of the Cordilleran glacier" which plugged the drainage of the Clark Fork River, and that eventually "The ice cam is thought to have failed." (Allen 63) It was so low key because he made no point of highlighting the size of both the ice dam and the resulting flood from its failure. He stated his evidence in a low-key matter of fact way. Perhaps he was seeking to avoid some of the wrath of his more conservative fellows, who were wedded ideologically to "Uniformitarianism," a rather dogmatic idea that the present is an indication of the past, that cataclysmic events did not happen geologically speaking. Alfred Wegener faced the same uniformitarian dogma when he proposed continental drift. Like Wegener, Bretz examined the evidence, and developed his theory based upon the evidence, even though he did not have the knowledge that Purdee did regarding the source of water, just as Wegener did not have a good explanation for the mechanism driving continental drift. Wegener's ideas were eventually provided a mechanism by Jolly and Holmes, while Bretz had Purdee to provide the source of his water. After describing certain "measurable fact about the lake," such as its altitude had reached "about 2000 feet higher than the floor of the valley just above the dam," he went on to add in a rather low key manner that this "permitted a sudden large outflow."

Eventually, Bretz was vindicated and Purdee's theory was further supported by geological evidence gathered from a 1952 field expedition that resulted in two significant publications on the subject. (Allen et al. 2002: 67) The following is a rather interesting summation of the situation:
Allan et al. wrote:Early [Biblical] Catastrophism gave way to Uniformitarianism, which expanded our concept of time but stopped us from thinking in terms of sudden change. Then came Bretz's flood and with it still newer ways of perceiving, ways that include Uniformitarian ideas. You see, there's a great deal of sense in the idea of steady, imperceptible change. Most geology (from our limited, human viewpoint) works that way. And, the truth is, all those events we call "Catastrophic" are only the end result of slow processes building to rare but dramatic conclusions. Like the grand collapse of a carefully arranged row of dominoes, catastrophes are nothing more than finales. (Allen et al. 2002: 72)

In geology, believing is seeing. We're able to "see" catastrophes now. It was Bretz's Scabland that started the trend. Alfred Wegener's long-maligned theory, leading to "plate tectonics," (with a story more intricate than Bretz's) has at last been taken to heart, and we can no longer consider the earth secure. The continents, we're told, are drifting, and the ocean basins are on the move. Africa and South America probably did once fit together, just as their jigsaw shapes suggest, and the West Coast of North America is apparently an alien piece of the Mid-Pacific that began to be shoved into the American continent back in the Mesozoic, 100 million years ago. (Allen et al. 2002: 72)

Nothing stays put. A mere 5 million years ago the dried-up basin of the Mediterranean Sea was cataclysmically filled when then Atlantic Ocean broke through a natural dam at Gibraltar. (Allen et al. 2002: 72)
I have a question for you Otseng. When did the scientific community first confirm that the Medditerranean Sea (Basin) was once a desert? And how did they discover this? For that is an example of your second question.

Hint:
Hsü wrote:The Deluge

Cita, Wezel, and Maync had all been taught more than the rudiments of Mediterranean geology. They were all familiar with the various occurrences of evaporites on the land surrounding this inland sea--the late Miocene evaporates in Spain, in Piedmont, in Tuscany, in Marche-Umbria, in Calabria, in Sicily, on Ionian Islands, on Crete, on Cyprus, in Israel, in Algeria, and so on. Like others in our profession, however, they had considered these local logoonal deposits, formed during an epoch of unusually dry climate. As we now steamed eastward, relieved from the tension of daily drilling operations, the significance of our discovery began to sink in: we had found an evaporite formation beneath the Mediterranean sea floor, and we had geophysical evidence to suggest that the whole Mediterranean was underlain by this formation. With this knowledge we could no longer dismiss the late Miocene evaporites on land as simply local deposits. (Hsü 1983: 111)

Both Cita and Wezel had studied the evaporite formation in Sicily, the solfifera sicilienne, and knew it to include a thick series of rock salts, gypsum, and anhydrite. Interbedded with evaporites were marls with Messinian fossils. The youngest evaporite formation from other circum-Mediterranean countries were also Messinian in age. Unfortunately, the fossils in our cores from Hole 124 were not very good, and Cita had not yet had a chance to take a close look at them. She was eager to get some better samples at our next site to confirm the Messinian age of the evaporite deposition in the Mediterranian. (Hsü 1983: 112)

The solfifera in Sicily is overlain by a white oceanic sediment called Trubi marl. This marl has a microfauna that could have lived only in a deep sea of normal salinity. Paleontologists are quite certain of their conclusions: The Trubi foraminifera belong either to species that swam in deep waters or genera that dwelled on the deep and cold sea bottom. Later we were told by Dick Benson of the Smithsonian Museum, a specialist in ostracods, that the Trubi marine ostracod fauna in this formation is also a typically cold water assemblage, similar to those forms that live in the deep Atlantic today. Yet as the editor of Sedimentology, I had ust porcessed, prior to my depature for Lisbon, a manuscript by Laurie Hardie and Hans Eugster of the John Hopkins University on the solfifera sicilienne, which claimed that the Sicilian salts were laid down on a playa. If both the sedimentologists and the paleontologists were correct, the inescapable conclusion would be that the Messinian salt deposition in Sicily had been ended by a sudden deluge. When marine waters returned, the salt pan was turned suddenly into a deep sea. At the previous site we had failed to obtain a core that recorded the passage form evaporite to normal marine sedimentation. Nevertheless our oldest Pliocence core there showed considerable similarity to the Trubi marl of Sicily. Was it a clue that the deluge was not a local event in Sicily? Perhaps the whole Mediterranean was drowned when the floodgate of Gibralter was crushed. The evidence was tantalizing, but we hd to be sure. There was no alternative but to sample meter by meter at our next site with continuous coring. (Hsü 1983: 112-113)

(....) After the cores were investigated and the data processed, it turned out that we did not fare too badly at Site 125. Combining the cores from the two borewholes at this site, we managed to put together a continuous section for the sedimentary record of the last 5 million years, just as we had hoped. And more important, we obtained a core that recorded the end of the evaporite deposition and the beginning of the deluge. The last sediments of the Miocene were carbonate mud, which contained only very poorly developed forms of marine organisms. We now interpret this mud as the sediment laid down during the transient stage when the desiccated Mediterranean was again filled up. The salinity of this rising sea must have been higher than normal, for unlike the present situation, where heavy birnes produced in the Mediterranean by excess evaporation can find their way back to the Atlantic through the Strait of Gibralter, the latest Miocence Gibralter was the site of a huge waterfall, a one-way street. There was no way for the heavey brines to flow back into the Atlantic. The salt water grew more and more salty under the hot and sunny Mediteranean sky so that only some dwarf microfaunas could survive. Those were the last of the Miocene Mediterranean creatures. (Hsü 1983: 116)

Suddeenly, at the end of the Miocene, the dam broke and the basin was quickly filled to the brim. Then the influx of the Atlantic water and the reflux (return-flow) of the Mediterranean brines were able to moderate the high Mediterranean salinity caused by evaporation. The Mediterranean became again a habitable environment for marine organisms. (Hsü 1983: 116)

-- Hsü, Kenneth J. The Mediterranean was a Desert: A Voyage of the Glomar Challenger. Princeton: Princeton University Press; 1983; c1983 pp. 111-112.

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Re: Scablands and a catastrophic flood

Post #4

Post by Confused »

otseng wrote:Image
"It was the biggest flood in the world for which there is geological evidence," writes Norman Maclean in A River Runs Through It, referring to the catastrophic deluge that tore through the Pacific Northwest every time Glacial Lake Missoula's ice dam gave way. "t was so vast a geological event that the mind of man could only conceive of it but could not prove it until photographs could be taken from Earth satellites." Proof now in hand, geologists today point to numerous features in the landscape that reveal the extreme scale and violence involved in these truly colossal floods.

Mystery of the Megaflood

J. Harlen Bretz, who theorized that the Washington Scablands was formed by a catastrophic flood, was of course first met with intense opposition.

Bretz conducted meticulous research and published many papers during the 1920s describing the Channeled Scablands. His theories of how they were formed required short but immense water flows, for which Bretz had no explanation (the source of the water was never the focus of his research). Bretz's theories met with vehement opposition from geologists of the day, who tried to explain the features with uniformitarianism theories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scablands

However, it is now commonly accepted among scientists that the Scablands was formed by a catastrophic flood (which I think this by itself is very interesting). And not only that, it was formed relatively recently too - around 15000 years ago (which also is very interesting).

Questions which I'd like to discuss:

Where did the water come from?
If a catastrophic flood created the Scablands in a short period of time, couldn't other geological features elsewhere be also created in a short amount of time?


the short and simple answer: yes, other geological features could have been created in a short time. We see it a lot in the Sink Holes here in the Panhandle of Florida. Falling Waters National Park has the best.
Where did the water come from? I think the glacier theory hold the best explaination.
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Post #5

Post by juliod »

Where did the water come from?
What's to discuss? It was glaciers, right?
If a catastrophic flood created the Scablands in a short period of time, couldn't other geological features elsewhere be also created in a short amount of time?
Of course, and I think there are many examples of this.

There are two important points about this.

1) According to one of your links, this is the largest flood for which there is geological evidence, yet it is still miniscule compared to the size of the earth.

2) The issue is not whether floods can cut through strate rapidly, but how long does it take to form the strata in the first place.

DanZ

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Post #6

Post by Cathar1950 »

I love that picture. It is beautiful.
Breathtaking.

It seems given the age of the Earth and the many ice ages that there were many such happenings.

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Post #7

Post by otseng »

Rob wrote: We now know conclusively the source of the water. It was first revealed in a rather low key paper entitled "Unusual Currents in Lake Missoula" presented at a Geological Society of Washington meeting in 1927.
I wouldn't quite say it's conclusive, but it certainly seems to be the only one that geologists have offered.
juliod wrote:What's to discuss? It was glaciers, right?
Let's take a look at the ice dam hypothesis.
Sometimes a glacier flows down a valley to a confluence where the other branch carries an unfrozen river. The glacier blocks the river, which backs up into a lake, which eventually overflows or undermines the ice dam, suddenly releasing the impounded water.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_dam

A glacier created an ice dam on the Clark Fork River that created Glacial Lake Missoula.

It's estimated there were 500 cubic miles of water was behind the ice dam. (The volume of Lakes Erie and Ontario combined.)
http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_bo ... 2/sec3.htm

The ice dam was also more than 2000 feet tall.
http://glacier.visitmt.com/iceage.htm

2000 feet tall is not a trivial height. This is about 2 Eiffel towers stacked on top of each other. And 500 cubic mile of water is no small matter either. For a comparison, the largest dam in the world, the Three Gorges dam, is 630 feet high and holds 51,402,459 cubic yards of water. Whereas the Glacial Lake Missoula would've held 2,725,888,000,000 cubic yards. That's 53000 times the volume of Three Gorges dam.
As the lake basin drained, the water had to pass through narrow parts of the Clark Fork Canyon where current velocities are calculated to have reached 45 miles per hour. The maximum rate of flow is estimated to have been 9-1/2 cubic miles per hour - a rate of 386 million cubic feet per second, or about 10 times the combined flow of all the rivers of the world. For comparison, the rate of flow of the world's largest river, the Amazon, is 6 million cubic feet per second, and the Columbia averages about 255 thousand cubic feet per second.
http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_bo ... 2/sec4.htm

The entire 500 cubic mile of water is estimated to have been emptied in 2 to 3 days.
http://www.iceagefloodsinstitute.org/ab ... appen.html

An ice dam with a depth of 2000 feet does not form quickly. One question is how could it've formed to this depth over time without the hydrostatic pressure of water to collapse it before it got to be so large? All ice dams we see today collapse far below this size. For example, the Hubbard Glacier released 1.27 cubic mile of water on Oct 8, 1986.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbard_Glacier

And for any hydrologists out there, is it even theoretically possible to create an ice dam this large without it collapsing before then?

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Post #8

Post by jwu »

For a comparison, the largest dam in the world, the Three Gorges dam, is 630 feet high and holds 51,402,459 cubic yards of water.
Your figure is incorrect.

Those roughly 50 million cubic meters equals a volume of an area of one square kilometer filled 50 meters high with water. Even an insignificant lake that is about five kilometers from where i live has thrice that volume.

Your figure is the volume of the dam construction, not of the water that is held behind it. The actual amount of water is roughly 39 cubic miles, so the ice dam didn't hold 53000 times but only about 12 times as much water.
Last edited by jwu on Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post #9

Post by otseng »

jwu wrote:Your figure is the volume of the dam construction, not of the water that is held behind it. The actual amount of water is roughly 39 cubic miles, so the ice dam doesn't hold 53000 times but only about 12 times as much water.
Ah, thank you for the correction. :)

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Post #10

Post by jwu »

An ice dam with a depth of 2000 feet does not form quickly. One question is how could it've formed to this depth over time without the hydrostatic pressure of water to collapse it before it got to be so large? All ice dams we see today collapse far below this size. For example, the Hubbard Glacier released 1.27 cubic mile of water on Oct 8, 1986.
Hubbard Glacier is miniscule compared to the glacier which is thought to have created that lake and rather thin at the place where it blocked the water, while that glacier which is thought to be responsible for the scablands blocked the water with a wall of ice many miles wide.

Another factor is the speed of the buildup of water. In a deep but thin valley the water can rise rather quickly and thus it achieves a rather fast buildup of pressure, while this takes much longer on a flat plain.

Note that the actual volume of the lake is irrelevant to the pressure, only the height of the dam matters.

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