Are choices made by biological beings inevitable?
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Are choices made by biological beings inevitable?
Post #1Are choices made by biological beings inevitable? If I had your genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would I not be you, when and where you are reading these words? If you had my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would you not be I, when and where I am typing these words? If you and I had the genes, environments, nutrients and experiences of a tardigrade in the vacuum of space we could survive there without air, water, food and shelter. Since our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, do we live inevitable lives and die inevitable deaths? In that case, how can there be justice?
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Re: Are choices made by biological beings inevitable?
Post #2As a hard determinist I wouldn't even say we have choices, but are inevitably controlled by deterministic factors that direct our lives.Compassionist wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 1:49 pm Are choices made by biological beings inevitable? If I had your genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would I not be you, when and where you are reading these words? If you had my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would you not be I, when and where I am typing these words? If you and I had the genes, environments, nutrients and experiences of a tardigrade in the vacuum of space we could survive there without air, water, food and shelter. Since our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, do we live inevitable lives and die inevitable deaths? In that case, how can there be justice?
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Re: Are choices made by biological beings inevitable?
Post #3I don't think so, there is reason to believe the universe is not entirely deterministic and because of that I doubt that we can be reduced to finite state machines without something being lost.Compassionist wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 1:49 pm Are choices made by biological beings inevitable? If I had your genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would I not be you, when and where you are reading these words? If you had my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would you not be I, when and where I am typing these words? If you and I had the genes, environments, nutrients and experiences of a tardigrade in the vacuum of space we could survive there without air, water, food and shelter. Since our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, do we live inevitable lives and die inevitable deaths? In that case, how can there be justice?
The question of justice (and punishment) is a profound one, it really only makes sense if we assume free will, some ability to choose above and beyond mere cause->effect>cause->effect.
It comes up in this academic round table discussion which I recommend.
Last edited by Sherlock Holmes on Mon May 16, 2022 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are choices made by biological beings inevitable?
Post #4Are you talking about quantum mechanics? Quantum fluctuations average out at the macroscopic level.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 3:00 pmI don't think so, there is reason to believe the universe is not entirely deterministic and because of that I doubt that we can be reduced to finite state machines without something being lost.Compassionist wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 1:49 pm Are choices made by biological beings inevitable? If I had your genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would I not be you, when and where you are reading these words? If you had my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would you not be I, when and where I am typing these words? If you and I had the genes, environments, nutrients and experiences of a tardigrade in the vacuum of space we could survive there without air, water, food and shelter. Since our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, do we live inevitable lives and die inevitable deaths? In that case, how can there be justice?
Re: Are choices made by biological beings inevitable?
Post #5Yes I suppose I am, consider the unpredictability inherent in radioactive decay. We can envisage two "identical" beings, with an identical internal state and then we must recognize that microscopic physical events can take place in each being but at different times, in different order. There's no way we can hope to avoid these two beings becoming increasingly different over time.Compassionist wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 3:05 pmAre you talking about quantum mechanics? Quantum fluctuations average out at the macroscopic level.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 3:00 pmI don't think so, there is reason to believe the universe is not entirely deterministic and because of that I doubt that we can be reduced to finite state machines without something being lost.Compassionist wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 1:49 pm Are choices made by biological beings inevitable? If I had your genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would I not be you, when and where you are reading these words? If you had my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would you not be I, when and where I am typing these words? If you and I had the genes, environments, nutrients and experiences of a tardigrade in the vacuum of space we could survive there without air, water, food and shelter. Since our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, do we live inevitable lives and die inevitable deaths? In that case, how can there be justice?
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Re: Are choices made by biological beings inevitable?
Post #6[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #5]
Radioactive decay is unpredictable to humans but that does not mean that it grants humans free will.
Radioactive decay is unpredictable to humans but that does not mean that it grants humans free will.
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Re: Are choices made by biological beings inevitable?
Post #8OR that it's uncaused.Compassionist wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 3:36 pm [Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #5]
Radioactive decay is unpredictable to humans but that does not mean that it grants humans free will.
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Re: Are choices made by biological beings inevitable?
Post #9Things I want to do but can't do due to lack of ability:Compassionist wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 1:49 pm Are choices made by biological beings inevitable? If I had your genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would I not be you, when and where you are reading these words? If you had my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would you not be I, when and where I am typing these words? If you and I had the genes, environments, nutrients and experiences of a tardigrade in the vacuum of space we could survive there without air, water, food and shelter. Since our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, do we live inevitable lives and die inevitable deaths? In that case, how can there be justice?
1. Go back in time and prevent all suffering and death and injustice.
2. Make all living things equally omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent and be the owner of an infinite number of universes each.
3. End all diseases, injuries, deaths, etc.
4. Prevent all natural disasters.
5. Prevent all accidents.
6. Prevent all violence, killings, rapes, kidnappings, tortures, crimes, persecutions, bullying, bigotry, hypocrisy, selfishness, cruelty, etc.
7. Prevent all malevolence and ignorance.
8. Give everyone the ability to teleport everywhere in an infinite number of universes across an infinite number of timelines.
9. Prevent all poverty.
Things I do (or will do) even though I don't want to do them:
1. Breathe
2. Eat
3. Drink
4. Sleep
5. Dream
7. Pee
8. Poo
9. Fart
10. Burp
11. Sneeze
12. Cough
13.Age
14. Get ill
15. Get injured
16. Sweat
17. Cry
18. Suffer
19. Die
I am clearly not a free agent with a free will. I am truly a prisoner of causality who does things he does not want to do and can't do what he wants to do. The same applies to you and other prisoners of causality. All sentient biological beings are victims from conception to death. We live inevitable lives and make inevitable choices. All our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. Only an all-knowing and all-powerful being has free will. All else are victims of having insufficient knowledge and having insufficient power.
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Re: Are choices made by biological beings inevitable?
Post #10What would this reason be?Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 3:00 pmI don't think so, there is reason to believe the universe is not entirely deterministic and because of that I doubt that we can be reduced to finite state machines without something being lost.Compassionist wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 1:49 pm Are choices made by biological beings inevitable? If I had your genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would I not be you, when and where you are reading these words? If you had my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would you not be I, when and where I am typing these words? If you and I had the genes, environments, nutrients and experiences of a tardigrade in the vacuum of space we could survive there without air, water, food and shelter. Since our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, do we live inevitable lives and die inevitable deaths? In that case, how can there be justice?
Not at all. In a deterministic world----the one in which we live ----punishment can serve as a cause itself, which, in part, produces an effect down the line that stops behavior like that which caused the punishment.The question of justice (and punishment) is a profound one, it really only makes sense if we assume free will, some ability to choose above and beyond mere cause->effect>cause->effect.
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