Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[TRANSPONDER]

Well, yes, you can say salvation to release us from the sinful way God made us, but why not just do it? The crucifixion as an act of washing away sin is meaningless because (without the Fall) sin is just how we were made. Which means man was not at first immortal.

Jesus had the right to forgive sins freely, even before his death. Therefore death was not necessary for to forgive.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Also disciples of Jesus have the licence to forgive:

If you forgive anyone’s sins, they have been forgiven them. If you retain anyone’s sins, they have been retained.”
John 20:23

And the Biblical reason why Jesus died is:

For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:9

There is the problem also with Righteousness because (Paul says) this is the way man (all men) were made before the fall. Thus Gentiles can become Righteous, not through works, but through faith in Jesus (replacing Belief in God's words,as I recallyou argued). This act alone makes a person Righteous and should make a believer sinless.

Where Paul says people were righteous before the fall?

It is sad that people don't seem to understand that faith, belief and works are only the results. If person has righteous mind, it produces righteous "fruit". If one has that righteous "fruit", he can be counted righteous. No act (faith, belief or work) of human makes him righteous.

But Paul says we are all (gentiles too) naturally moral ...

Please show the scripture.

Jesus' crucifixion served only as the law served the Jews - making it almost impossible to be saved unless the Jews observed the law perfectly as Peter says 'A burden our fathers were unable to bear' (Acts). Jesus makes humankind sinful (even if they weren't before - if Eden isn't true, which is my whole point) unless they have faith in Jesus.

If one obeys the law perfectly, he doesn't need to be saved. Person needs to be saved, if he has done wrongly and gained the wage of sin.

No, no no. Paul's argument is that we are naturally moral without the Jewish Law. I suggest you read Romans and Corinthians for yourself. But we are all deserving of 'death' because of the fall. Even with the power of Jesus and/or dis disciples to forgive sins, the crucifixion was done to allow a total forgiveness for sins (if one doesn't sin too badly for that)

Sorry if I decline to search out scripture, but I'm sure we did this all before and you dismissed it anyway. Your quotes seem irrelevant anyway. Sure Paul argued that Jesus, raised was lord of living and dead but that has nothing to do with whether Jesusfaith can save from sin. Your quote doesn't even seem to be connected let alone relevant.

But where you miss the mark is here It is sad that people don't seem to understand that faith, belief and works are only the results. If person has righteous mind, it produces righteous "fruit". If one has that righteous "fruit", he can be counted righteous. No act (faith, belief or work) of human makes him righteous.

It is effectively saying that morality does not depend on 'Faith' but a moral mind. The debate then becomes about whether the Bible makes people moral or not.

But Christian Dogma pretty much says we are all sinners and works do not make one Righteous. Only Faith does that Faith in Jesus as resurrected Christ just as Paul says (and I'm sure we have done that before, too) because works are not enough to save because we are all sinners because of the fall. If you deny that, you have invented your own religion, and we have had that discussion before, too.

[Capbook]

[Replying to POI in post #1]



Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
KJV
We are saved by God's grace through faith. Work is the result of being saved.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to POI in post #1]



Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
KJV
We are saved by God's grace through faith. Work is the result of being saved.

First post? welcome .Glad to see now contributors. Yes, that is Christian Dogma. It is apparently Christian belief that Jesusfaith makes one a moralperson, going'Good Works'. I'm not so sure.I have never found Christian believers a whit better than rationalists and humanists. Though it is probably true that fear of Jesus looking down at them may prevent them from petty ..rulebreaking, perhaps. For instance in my early days at 'The office' (it wasn't as bad as the TV show) during a rail strike, metro/Tube users were asked to be honest and buy tickets. I was. Others were not and thought me a fool for paying. It was a choice to be honest to myself or cheat and not care. I don't know whether the cheaters were Christian or not. But even if - yes, the Jesus CCTV may make people behave, but not because they want to but because they have to. I would prefer people to do Good Works because they know it is better, not to please Jesus.

[POI]

Assuming all here have read their Bible, why is this answer not more unified among believers, who claim to know the Bible? The answers are ALL OVER THE PLACE.

Answer key:

A) Unconditional grace - (Jesus already did all the dirty work, everyone goes now since he had to die for all, as all fall short)
B) Faith/belief - (accept him as your savior, ask him for guidance, apply trust in him)
C) Works - (necessary additional acts or tasks in which Jesus also deems 'good')
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

********************

Provided Christian answers, thus far:

Post 11: JW No answer
Post 27: Eloi No answer
Post 49: Bjs1 answer B)
Post 76: Tam answer D)
Post 236: kjw47 answer D)
Post 239: DJT_47 answer D)
Post 321: AFG answer D)
Post 758: Mea Von H answer A) or E)?
post 805: 1213 answer A)
Post 812: Capbook answer B)

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #1]



Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
KJV
We are saved by God's grace through faith. Work is the result of being saved.

What about anyone who dies without ever hearing of Jesus?

[1213]

...
But Christian Dogma pretty much says we are all sinners and works do not make one Righteous. Only Faith does that Faith in Jesus as resurrected Christ just as Paul says (and I'm sure we have done that before, too) because works are not enough to save because we are all sinners because of the fall. If you deny that, you have invented your own religion, and we have had that discussion before, too.

Allegedly there are thousands of Christian sects. Their dogmas can say whatever the sect want it to say. To me crucial is that what is said in the Bible, and especially the words of Jesus.

And by what is said in the Bible, a person can be counted righteous, if he shows the signs that his is righteous. Faith and works are such signs.

Works and faith doesn't save, it is God who saves.

And people are sinners, if they have rejected God, or are without God.

[Capbook]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #813]


KJV

Eph 2:10
10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
NIV
For me I would prefer to do good works though sinful in nature, seek guidance from the HS and try to show my love to Jesus. John 14:15

[Capbook]

[Replying to POI in post #815]

For those who died without hearing the gospel. I believe Romans 2:14-15 applicable to them;

They instinctively and intuitively know the difference between right and wrong. This is not referring to the ceremonial law and the civil law. It is referring to the moral law of God contained in the Ten Commandments. They instinctively know they should honor their parents. They instinctively know they should not steal. They instinctively know they should tell the truth. They instinctively know that they should love other people and show compassion to others. They instinctively know it, because God has written it upon their hearts.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #813]


KJV

Eph 2:10
10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
NIV
For me I would prefer to do good works though sinful in nature, seek guidance from the HS and try to show my love to Jesus. John 14:15

i can relate to that 2nd line (not the first, which is a Faithclaim without evidential force), but I would change a few of the words. "For me I would prefer to do good works though imperfect in nature, seek guidance from the moral tradition and try to show my love for my fellow human, or at least, my best wishes."

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #815]

For those who died without hearing the gospel. I believe Romans 2:14-15 applicable to them;

They instinctively and intuitively know the difference between right and wrong. This is not referring to the ceremonial law and the civil law. It is referring to the moral law of God contained in the Ten Commandments. They instinctively know they should honor their parents. They instinctively know they should not steal. They instinctively know they should tell the truth. They instinctively know that they should love other people and show compassion to others. They instinctively know it, because God has written it upon their hearts.

So then, answer B) is actually not a requirement?