Question for Debate: If all the white people moved to Mars, would it hurt anyone, even if they remained racist?
I think racists have, if not a good point, a good question, when they continue to wonder why POCs strive to come to majority-white countries only to be discriminated against.
The reason it's not a good point is because the issue is entangled with resources. People will go where resources are despite the political or social system, so you can't claim, as racists try to claim with this question, that POCs are heading into majority-white countries in order to exploit white guilt and gain by that exploitation, and we can't trust the incredulity that nobody would intentionally go where they're so harshly discriminated against and victimised. Because there is no control group of a majority-white area without disproportionate resources and prosperity, one cannot rule out the possibility that POCs come into an environment where they are victimised because they still expect an overall better life, which of course doesn't negate the discrimination or make it okay. People may move to locations with a high murder rate for some benefit that outweighs the risk, but that doesn't mean don't punish the murderers.
Seeking justice isn't suddenly some impropriety just because you are, overall, better off in the environment where the injustice exists. It might seem like looking a gift horse in the mouth, it might seem rude, but it isn't. The analogy is rightly closer to an abusive parent who claims that because they give their child so much, the child is wrong to report a beating. Even if he came from the house next door where he got worse beatings, no. No. Justice doesn't play quid-pro-quo games or ask that people sacrifice it to return favours. Justice is justice.
That's why I'm asking the hypothetical, and disentangling the question from resources. Imagine all the white people just move away, taking no or very few resources with them. They no longer have direct interaction with Earthlings; they are Martians now, and they're isolationist. They have their own media, and they advise Earthlings not to tune in, and in fact they encrypt anything broadcast that Earthlings might tune into, though of course it's possible to descramble if you're really intent on it; we'll say you can watch Martian TV with a black-market box developed for just such a purpose (they're expensive, because you must pay to maintain a satellite relay, so imagine about $250/month). Even if the Martians go full-on Nazi, railing to each other about how bad all the other races are and how great it is to be white, worst case scenario, most racist possible, does it even matter if they're all gone? Or does their existence in that racist state continue to harm those they discriminate against even while completely removed from those other people?
Whites Go Away?
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Re: Whites Go Away?
Post #61Bill Gates didn't get any more handouts for being white than the white guy working at McDonald's did. Since I only consider bias to be injustice if it is racial in nature, I don't care that Bill Gates is so rich. I care much, much more that the white manager at McDonald's is hiring a bunch of white people who are worse at the job, because 1) it affects more people including the customers and 2) nepotism and other forms of bias that make the rich so rich, aren't injustice. I don't like them and I would rather live in a meritocracy, but we don't, and sometimes the boss's son gets the job instead, and too bad, it happens to everyone, it's part of life.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 8:35 pmLet me see if I understand this. According to you, white people are all evil and racist and addicted to power and privilege and should have power and privilege taken away, because that would be "justice".......
.......unless they're rich, in which case all that power has been "earned".
I was disgusted at your proclamation that a rapist is one of your heroes, but imagine my surprise, after your diatribe against "white power structure", to learn that you hold Bill Gates and Rupert Murdoch in high regard as well!
It seems that the only white people you really take issue with are the ones without any power. Your views are a remarkable study in cognitive dissonance.
I consider that there is a difference between my personal preference for a pure meritocracy because it would be nice to live in, and racial injustice which is absolutely morally unacceptable.
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Re: Whites Go Away?
Post #62[Replying to Purple Knight in post #61
You continue to contradict yourself. You've gone on and on about a system of "power and privilege" which gives white people everything for being white, now you want to give a white guy a pass because he's rich. You think Bill Gates hasn't "benefitted" from the very system you complain so bitterly about? If the system Bill Gates was born into hasn't benefitted him, then how has it benefitted the white guy working at McDonald's, whom you insist on calling a racist simply because he's white? In another recent thread you say that white people....Bill Gates didn't get any more handouts for being white than the white guy working at McDonald's did.
....but here you say that rich white people "earned" it. If poor white people don't earn a minimum wage they work for, how do rich white people earn fortunes they don't work for? Your position is clearly capitalism-friendly.scream for minimum wage hikes they don't deserve
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Re: Whites Go Away?
Post #63[Replying to Purple Knight in post #60]
For me, there is no doubt the white race has, throughout history, been terrible to other races (to put it mildly). That doesn't mean every white person is a racist today simply because of what has happened in the past. That said, humans see differences in people and, thanks to media and poorly taught history and religion, everyone has a racist bent to themselves once they get old enough to make their own decisions. What everyone needs to do, IMO, is to try to learn from others, and not react to their first (and sometimes second) initial reaction or thought about someone different from them. People need to realize racism will never go away - the world is not perfect. Humans have to train themselves to react differently to different people. It's a learning process. Expecting immediate results (aka no more racism) is foolish.
Seems like we will have to agree to disagree on the racism subject.
I see other aspects of racism at play as well. But in the 'stealing the land' scenario, perhaps that's accurate.Well they're the ones disproportionately occupying lands they stole, so I think it's fair.
WHAT? That's so wrong it's funny. Racism isn't held to only one race.Whites are the only ones that can be racist by my definition.
Which is, itself, racist. You're creating your own definition to attack a specific race? Wow. Frightening.I am only concerned with eliminating the category of racism that is counted as racism under the new definition.
Then I suspect you need a good long look at what racism actually is. Seems to me what you're trying to define as racism is simply power and influence. Which is a part of racism for sure. But there's a lot more to it than that.To me, it doesn't matter until one of those races builds a power structure like the one we've got now to advantage their kind and artificially disadvantage other kinds.
At least you're honest!Well it might heighten bias.
By 'it' are you referring to 'fixing the problem'? Again, this seems to point with your fascination of power and influence, of which is a part of racism. But racism goes deeper than that from my experience.I'm wondering if that even matters if we can eliminate the harm caused by bias + privilege + power.
If you're afraid to fail, then you're really not trying to better anything. Might as well sit in your chair, all comfy, and complain about everything. Humanity is built of failure and rising above it when possible. That doesn't mean failures aren't teachable moments either. Human needs to learn not only from their successes but their failures.And even if it does matter, I'm wondering if going for the brass ring of diversity and equality is really worth the pain it causes as we try and fail, letting POCs pay for the mistakes we make because we think we can, though some degree of trying, just stop being racist.
That's more than obvious. Again, thanks for your honestyI would classify myself as vehemently anti-white.
For me, there is no doubt the white race has, throughout history, been terrible to other races (to put it mildly). That doesn't mean every white person is a racist today simply because of what has happened in the past. That said, humans see differences in people and, thanks to media and poorly taught history and religion, everyone has a racist bent to themselves once they get old enough to make their own decisions. What everyone needs to do, IMO, is to try to learn from others, and not react to their first (and sometimes second) initial reaction or thought about someone different from them. People need to realize racism will never go away - the world is not perfect. Humans have to train themselves to react differently to different people. It's a learning process. Expecting immediate results (aka no more racism) is foolish.
Seems like we will have to agree to disagree on the racism subject.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
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Re: Whites Go Away?
Post #64You've got it backwards. I didn't wake up one day and decide white people were bad, then create a definition to attack them. I noticed that only whites do the thing that I believe is actually wrong (exploiting power + privilege to benefit their race and hurt other races) and I adopted the new definition because it better expresses that.nobspeople wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:09 amWhich is, itself, racist. You're creating your own definition to attack a specific race? Wow. Frightening.I am only concerned with eliminating the category of racism that is counted as racism under the new definition.
Other races can be biased, but not racist.
By your definition, I'm the racist, and by your definition, I think only some racism (that includes power and privilege) is wrong.
It's like if you had a definition of murder that included self-defence. I would say (well, I might say) that I only think murder is wrong if it is not in self-defence. (Again, I don't actually know if killing in self-defence is justified, I use the example because most people think it is.)
Probably, since what matters most to me in determining right or wrong, justified or unjustified, is less of, or not even a factor to you.nobspeople wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:09 amFor me, there is no doubt the white race has, throughout history, been terrible to other races (to put it mildly). That doesn't mean every white person is a racist today simply because of what has happened in the past. That said, humans see differences in people and, thanks to media and poorly taught history and religion, everyone has a racist bent to themselves once they get old enough to make their own decisions. What everyone needs to do, IMO, is to try to learn from others, and not react to their first (and sometimes second) initial reaction or thought about someone different from them. People need to realize racism will never go away - the world is not perfect. Humans have to train themselves to react differently to different people. t's a learning process. Expecting immediate results (aka no more racism) is foolish.
Seems like we will have to agree to disagree on the racism subject.
I think this discussion goes further than race though. The way I'm insisting to step back and see the whole picture does, I admit, sometimes require knowledge we don't have. It might be apparently very, very wrong when we see one child hit another, but when we learn it was only because three seconds ago he was getting pummeled, the picture suddenly changes. And I admit I wonder, what would we see when taking an infinite number of steps back?
Because we live in a capitalist system. I prefer a meritocracy but we don't live in one. I'm not going to cry foul against people for simply playing the game that exists to their best benefit unless it's one race creating a power structure so they can steal from people, because I believe that is so very very wrong that it should be illegal in any system, no matter what.
I'm no friend to capitalism but most people don't understand the problems with the metagame and prefer capitalism, and I don't get to override their preference with mine because I'm smarter or for any other ridiculous reason. My preference counts equally to theirs. I might have a real Jumanji board that summons real jungle animals and the only reason the rest of them want to go play Monopoly instead is that they don't believe me or have misconceptions about what Jumanji is, but if they all want to go play Monopoly instead I don't get to force my way just because I'm better informed.
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Re: Whites Go Away?
Post #65[Replying to Purple Knight in post #64
And they are all rooted in bias. Bias is an unmerited preference, so although someone can be biased without being racist, no one can be racist without being biased because racism is a racial bias.
If you're going to admit that we don't live in a meritocracy, then you have to admit that the rich haven't "earned it". And following your own logic from there we have to conclude that the rich are guilty of exploitation, because they're the ones in power. If you're going to say that a racist power system is wrong, you can't say that an economic one or a sexist one or a homophobic one isn't wrong. If one type of exploitative power is wrong, they all are.I prefer a meritocracy but we don't live in one.
And they are all rooted in bias. Bias is an unmerited preference, so although someone can be biased without being racist, no one can be racist without being biased because racism is a racial bias.
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Re: Whites Go Away?
Post #66They've earned it by playing the board that exists, better than the other guy. In the world we have, the goal is to take as much value as possible, give as little value as possible, not work hard or produce value.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 1:14 pm [Replying to Purple Knight in post #64If you're going to admit that we don't live in a meritocracy, then you have to admit that the rich haven't "earned it".I prefer a meritocracy but we don't live in one.
I hate this world but it's not a fundamentally immoral system. A world that allowed murder would be a fundamentally immoral system. I am very careful about when I flip the board. It actually takes a lot for me to reject a lawful system. I believe that if I can't justify rejecting it, then I would be morally wrong myself to reject it.
What makes racism different is that anyone can, theoretically, become the exploiter. If it's just capitalism without a racist power structure, and if you can really outscam and bamboozle the other guy most of the time, you win, and you get rich. Start a multilevel marketing company. If you're savvy, you can do it, unless there happen to be throngs of white people whispering to one another about how to use their greater power to stop you.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 1:14 pmIf you're going to say that a racist power system is wrong, you can't say that an economic one or a sexist one or a homophobic one isn't wrong. If one type of exploitative power is wrong, they all are.
I'm also thoroughly consistent on this issue: It's about power.
I don't see it as board-flipping territory if one racist white person decides he doesn't like seeing a Black person at the window every time and ultimately not patronising that McDonald's ever again. But if he goes on Twitter and whips up a mob, look at all these POCs, that McDonald's only hires POCs, well now he has generated power and I actually believe that this is the case for cancel culture, even though they're cancelling my opponents. I think cancel culture should be illegal and if I had my way everyone whipping up mobs to get people fired would be put in jail, their social media accounts revoked, and their mouths sewn shut. Why am I trying to knock over a piece that solely benefits my side? Because I actually believe it's about power! And when you generate that power, however you do it, that's when you become guilty of creating an unfair society where some people do not and cannot get a shot. And that's wrong. It's the same as slavery. When someone cannot get out of those chains, the chains might as well be physical and have legal backing.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 9:58 pmPublicly whipping up a mob on Facebook to get someone fired? If I'm king that's a no. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200, go to jail.
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Re: Whites Go Away?
Post #67[Replying to Purple Knight in post #66
So the power structure of the rich is exploitative and wrong only if it's white people trying to keep others from getting rich? Nonsense. Power is power, and abuse of power is abuse of power. You're right about one thing; it is about power. It's not about race.What makes racism different is that anyone can, theoretically, become the exploiter. If it's just capitalism without a racist power structure, and if you can really outscam and bamboozle the other guy most of the time, you win, and you get rich. Start a multilevel marketing company. If you're savvy, you can do it, unless there happen to be throngs of white people whispering to one another about how to use their greater power to stop you.
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Re: Whites Go Away?
Post #68The rich/poor dynamic isn't flat-out universally morally wrong because the poor (usually the working poor) people want it. They love capitalism because they think it has something to do with "muh freedum" and/or they fantasise about becoming the exploiter one day and having passive income while others who weren't as exploitative and savvy, toil instead.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 10:58 amSo the power structure of the rich is exploitative and wrong only if it's white people trying to keep others from getting rich?
The poor also picked the game and they like it.
I think it's a stupid and energy-wasting game that makes everyone worse off but that's only my opinion.
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Re: Whites Go Away?
Post #69[Replying to Purple Knight in post #64]
Seems you're looking to prove your point which isn't an honest way to go about it IMO.
But to each their own. Humanity will never rid itself of racism.
That's not how you become a racist personI didn't wake up one day and decide white people were bad, then create a definition to attack them. I noticed that only whites do the thing that I believe is actually wrong (exploiting power + privilege to benefit their race and hurt other races) and I adopted the new definition because it better expresses that.
Seems you're looking to prove your point which isn't an honest way to go about it IMO.
But to each their own. Humanity will never rid itself of racism.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
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Re: Whites Go Away?
Post #70[Replying to Purple Knight in post #68
The poor didn't pick the game. It's forced on them and they don't like it. That's why there are so many demonstrations. That's why so many workers are on strike. And that's why the poor have to stop letting themselves be divided by race, gender, orientation etc. Only together can they take back the economy and have a good life.The poor also picked the game and they like it.