Musing on "A Mind Behind Creation"

[William]

[Rules Regarding Posting in this sub-forum]

David: There is always a degree of telepathy involved in Christianity and in other religions. And it is indeed their 'own conscience'. I know. I have talks with 'God' in my head all the time - but I know it's me.

William: I am interested in getting into a discussion [and potentially forming rapport with you] about your mention of the 'talks' you have with 'God' in your head all the time that you know is 'you' talking with yourself .

David: I see no point in discussing my discussions with myself because I effectively have me arguing with myself. It's how I can anticipate arguments before they happen. I don't think that is going to get you anywhere.

William: Well if you change your mind, you know where to find me.

[William]

Split From Thread

_____________

Forward:

It seems to me that it would be impossible to distinguish between a genuine connection with the MBC existing in reality and mistakenly believing a connection with the MBC exists in reality. After all, it is a demonstrable fact that our fallible brains are very good at mistakenly attributing the causes of various personal experiences to the wrong things. Therefore, how could you know if what you experience as a direct personal connection with the MBC is not just another case of mistaken attribution?

Can you give me an example of what you are referring to as "just another case of mistaken attribution"?

It is more common than you would expect for people to experience auditory hallucinations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_hallucination or to hear an actual sound produced by something but mistakenly attribute the source of the sound to the wrong thing. For instance, there is a species of bird which mimics the sound of children playing (video below):

There are also tactile hallucinations which are often associated with various psychological and neurological disorders. More commonly, many people with no such disorders routinely but mistakenly believe they felt the cell phone in their pocket vibrate briefly when it didn't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_v ... %20device.

Another example is the placebo effect where a subset of volunteers participating in a clinical trial for a new medication mistakenly attribute their recovery from an illness to the "medicine" they were given by the doctors when it was nothing more than a sugar pill. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo

Regardless, there are probably no examples of mistaken attribution that will be perfectly analogous to whatever personal experience you are attributing to a connection with the MBC. So, if you decide to dismiss my examples for that reason, I will have to ask what your purpose was in asking me to provide an example in the first place. Regardless, you have yet to describe a mechanism for ruling-out the possibility of being mistaken in attributing your personal experience to a connection with the MBC. How could you demonstrate that your personal experience was not the result of something like the placebo effect?

[William]

The Situation:

The stars look close tonight. Here in The Hub of The Hologram Dimensions.
I place a branch onto the fire and busy myself making a brew.
It is good to have another guest here. It seems to have been a while since I last had company.
The voice tells me his name is Blue-Green-Earth – I say the voice, because neither of us can see each other. But we can hear each other, and that is all that matters.
Blue-Green-Earth wants me to describe the mechanism I used for ruling out the possibility of being mistaken in attributing my experience of existing, to a connection with the Mind Behind Creation.
He wants some kind of demonstration…


William: The nature of the subject means demonstrating an immaterial reality to an external recipient, is difficult to achieve. The best that can be done therefore, is to examine the evidence related to mind, and leave it up to the individual to investigate for themselves anything which can be repeatable.

I think that placebo effect is possibly the result of hypochondriacs imagining that they have an illness and when given a sugar-pill and told it will help them get better, they believe it to be the case and thus get better, but they don't really get better because they are not diagnosed as being sick in the first place.

I do not know if this has been tested on folk who have been diagnosed with an illness and given a sugar pill which they are told will cure them, and if a cure actually takes place.

Re the idea that my thinking I have a relationship with a real Mind Behind Creation [MBC] may be a similar thing to placebo effect, would this have to equate to;

1: My being told that I exist within a creation, [Therefore by implication there is a mind behind said creation.]
2: My choosing to believe that this is true. [taking the sugar pill]
3: My then seeing that it is indeed true by forming said relationship with MBC [being cured]

Would you agree that this follows the example of placebo effect re MBC, as you used the example, or am I missing the mark?

[bluegreenearth]

William: The nature of the subject means demonstrating an immaterial reality to an external recipient, is difficult to achieve. The best that can be done therefore, is to examine the evidence related to mind, and leave it up to the individual to investigate for themselves anything which can be repeatable.

I think that placebo effect is possibly the result of hypochondriacs imagining that they have an illness and when given a sugar-pill and told it will help them get better, they believe it to be the case and thus get better, but they don't really get better because they are not diagnosed as being sick in the first place.

I do not know if this has been tested on folk who have been diagnosed with an illness and given a sugar pill which they are told will cure them, and if a cure actually takes place.

Re the idea that my thinking I have a relationship with a real Mind Behind Creation [MBC] may be a similar thing to placebo effect, would this have to equate to;

1: My being told that I exist within a creation, [Therefore by implication there is a mind behind said creation.]
2: My choosing to believe that this is true. [taking the sugar pill]
3: My then seeing that it is indeed true by forming said relationship with MBC [being cured]

Would you agree that this follows the example of placebo effect re MBC, as you used the example, or am I missing the mark?

The placebo effect is necessarily tested on patients who have been diagnosed with an illness because it functions as a control when testing medications which are designed to treat diagnosed illnesses. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo

Please note, I didn't intend for the example of the placebo effect to be perfectly analogous to your personal experience. This is why I was careful to ask if it could be something "like the placebo effect" rather than asking if it was the placebo effect. Nevertheless, I've considered your comparison and it seems to miss the mark because of the following:
1: You needn't have been told that you exist within a creation. It is possible for you to have arrived at that hypothesis through your own reasoning process. (Whether your reasoning process is sound or in error does not matter at this point.)
2: It isn't possible to choose your beliefs. You are compelled by your reasoning process to have your beliefs. (Again, whether your reasoning process is sound or in error does not matter at this point.)
3: It is not logically possible to know the belief is true because you haven't described how to rule-out the possibility of the belief being mistaken.

Here is how I perceive something "like the placebo effect" could possibly occur in your scenario:
1: Either by being told or through your own reasoning, you arrive at the hypothesis that a MBC could possibly exist.
2: You reason that if the MBV hypothesis is true, it should be possible for your mind to connect with it.
3. You conduct some type of "experiment" intended to produce the personal experience you would expect if the MBC hypothesis is true. However, you haven't considered or are not convinced that it is equally possible for your own brain (i.e. the placebo) to produce the identical personal experience you are presuming will only occur if the MBC hypothesis is true.
4. The "experiment" supplies you with the predicted personal experience.
5. In realty, your own brain caused you to have the predicted personal experience, but you mistakenly conclude that it was caused by a genuine connection with the MBC.

The analogy of the placebo effect breaks down at the point where it is possible to discover whether the pill the patient received was actually comprised of sugar or the experimental medication. In the case of the MBC, there is no obvious means by which we could discover if your personal experiences are actually caused by your own fallible brain (i.e. the placebo) or the existence of a MBC (i.e. the experimental medicine). For this reason, I'm not insisting that you aren't genuinely connecting with a MBC. However, at the same time, there doesn't appear to be a justifiable reason to believe a connection with a MBC is more plausible than those personal experiences being entirely manufactured by your own fallible brain. In fact, given what is demonstrably known about the fallible human brain, the possibility that your personal experiences are caused by a genuine connection with a MBC is probably far less plausible. Of course, since I also have a fallible brain, it is possible for me to be mistaken as well. So, I try to remain doxastically open.

Regardless, I would still be interested in learning how to rule-out the possibility that the belief could be mistaken. Is it possible to do so, or is the belief unfalsifiable and faith-based?

[William]

While I am listening to Blue-Green-Earth replying, I get an incoming message from Manu Iti. It is rather involved so I focus on my what my fireside guest tells me. Incoming messages will keep.

After Blue-Green-Earth finishes, I take the opportunity to think about what he said, and while doing so, read the message from Manu Iti.

It reads;

Untrue Commendably Recommendable Earth teachers (non-physical) prepare the species for acceptance of the Grand Portal Being Friends Measurements Pervasive Wish Free Will The Minds Eye In Love Penny Tuppence Shallow Do a QWERTY.

As usual, Manu Iti's messages - while no doubt would appear rather cryptic to any observer, hold meaning for me. I think his message is provident. I will do a QWERTY when I finish replying to my guest, and see what manifests from that.


William: My understanding of the MBC means that being told or figuring something out through my own reasoning, amounts to the same thing - If I arrive at the hypothesis that a MBC could possibly exist, it is done with the assistance of the MBC.

I do reason that if the MBC hypothesis is true, it should be possible for my mind to connect with it, but it is more the case that my mind connected with it before I understood what 'it' was.

It wasn't the case of conducting experiments intended to produce the results [through personal experience] that I would expect, if indeed there was an MBC. - that was not the path I took.

What I can say is that it started as a thing of faith/belief in an idea of a god [Christian-based in my case] and so we might agree that this could represent the expectation I had in my mind, and that this expectation [re placebo]produced the results I was expecting and the experimental aspect might be called 'prayer' as in I ask for a particular result, and believed that in the asking, I would receive what it is that I asked for, in the form of predicted personal experience.

I can agree with the analogy except you would have to explain how "in realty, my own brain caused me to have the predicted personal experience, but I mistakenly concluded that it was caused by a genuine connection with the - in this case - Christian God."
[The understanding of the MBC comes later]

I find it difficult to believe that the human brain [the material object] can entirely manufacture experience.
___________________________

I pause to sip my brew and think about my next sentence.

William: My initial experience of prayer being answered had to do with the process below;

1: I identify a need.
2: I ask an invisible entity to provide me that need.
3: The need is provided for.


The need in this instance is 'a job'
The situation is that I am unemployed as I left a job and moved to another area. The area I move to has the countries highest unemployment rate.
This does not matter, as I believe I will be provided a job through asking an invisible entity to 'make it so'.
I am so confident in getting a job, that when I am asked by my aunty why I left a perfectly good job and moved to the region where jobs are hard to get, I replied that it does not matter where I am, GOD will provide me with a job.
My aunty is atheist and tells me that her own son has been trying to get a job for months so 'good luck with that'.
Since I worked hard without a break at my last Job, I decide to take a fortnight off, before commencing with searching for a job.
After the fortnight, I start off early one morning and walk the couple of miles to the industrial zone, and decide to go to the end of the street, with the intention of making my way down said road, going to each factory office and asking if they have any vacancies.
The first place at the end of the street is a concrete-block making facility. I go to the office and ask the man if there are any jobs going.
The man looks me up and down and smiles and asks me how soon I can start?
I tell the man I can start the next morning.
The man tells me that he thought I might say that and then tells me to be here in the morning to start my new Job.
__________________________
Why should I believe that my brain manufactured that event, when it is far more logical to understand that my prayer was answered by an invisible entity?
__________________________

One again, I get out my tablet and open the MG, which I put through a randomizer algorithm.
The first word-string on the list reads;
The Simplest Explanations For Why We Are Here And What We Are Doing.

Using this as the anchor-subject, I proceed with doing a QWERTY.
The message generated, reads as follows;

A Pragmatic Realization Precipitated In Ones Mind Birthing Cats Whiskers Discussing the data Emotion Rides The Prow Fair Dinkum Gateway Hiraeth Illusion Algorithm Keep An Eye Out for Ones Neighbours Looking into the science of Astral Projection Musing On The Mother Act I Now Here Occupation Perception Quiet Time Reality Self Awareness The Gist of The Message Understanding Victim Vamp Energy Systems Wampus Cat Extraterrestrial You Will Zeitgeist

After creating the message, I save it and contemplate it's significance in relation to recent events I have been involved with.

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to William in post #5]

It is my understanding that the chances of you finding a manufacturing job by systematically inquiring with a series of employers in the area was not so improbable that your success in becoming employed was more likely a consequence of divine intervention. There are many variables in the scenario you described which could account for your rapid employment without having to invoke divine intervention. So, I'm a bit surprised at your confidence in the claim of divine intervention when those types of anecdotes occur fairly often in the lives of both theists and atheists alike. Then, there is also the fact of all the other times your prayers were not answered. Arguably, you appear to have been influenced by confirmation bias in this case because the desirable outcome just happened to occur in accordance with your expectations.

[William]

William: I agree with the idea that what I thought of back then as an answer to a prayer, was simply a happy accident of circumstance which needn't be assigned the extra layer of adding a MBC moving behind the scene to make it so.
Certainly my aunty didn't change her mind and remains an atheist to this day. Coincidently she is not a very happy personality but that has been her characteristic for most of her life...so who knows if there is any connection therein.

At the time aunties understanding was that the chances of my finding a manufacturing job by systematically inquiring with a series of employers in the area was not going to result in my success in becoming employed, but no doubt she would have seen it as dumb luck than as a consequence of divine intervention.

I will correct you on one point though. While my intent was to systematically inquire for work at every office in the industrial zone, it was the very first place that I enquired which gave me the job.

Two other points which are significant are.

I was 17.5 years old when that incident happened. I am now just turned 59.

In that time since [41.5 years] I should have already come to the conclusion that the explanation of the outcome was influenced by confirmation bias because - even if I would have continued asking the immaterial for the material - chances would be higher that I would often not always get any answer because.
1: There is no MBC
2: Happy coincidences would not always happen, and I would quickly come to that conclusion, naturally.

I would say that placebo effect doesn't apply to the case we are presently studying. At least, I don't see that you have established that connection.

What I do see though, is that the case is more and example of a process which develops confirmation bias, and the more often it occurs, the more solid that bias becomes.

For example, if I were to take into consideration the first 17.5 years leading up to these sets of events which led me to investigate 'the power of prayer' - I would have to be honest and say that those years were also used to develop confirmation bias that life was more just an accident and I just had to get through it the best I could, for as long as possible, and not to take my place in the scheme of things as something which could seriously affect outcomes re the rest of the world.

In that bias, I was pretty much content. But of course, no matter the object of the bias, the subject is able to have a change of mind, and therein - through a theist vessel - investigation went 'the other way' and - as far as the last 41.5 years go, no thing offered by the atheist team has lead me to abandon the trip I am currently on - or more to the point - the way I see the trip we are all currently on.

That is because - theistically - the MBC became a sort of Embassy where I reside.

But that is now. Back then I was only learning the ropes.

In that learning, I discovered other ways in which the Embassy could interact with me, and in that I discovered an ensemble of like-minded participants.

Case 2:

Back around the start of 2001 onwards, I was interacting on the internet in a Yahoo group.
We were gathered because of our individual mutual interests in something which became somewhat popular quickly and we who were gathered, had engaged with that material as folk who were already quiet aware of the immaterial quality of life's experience - so on that level, we all had this in common.

Eventually we encouraged the owner of the popular site where the material first became public, to create a Forum where we could interact better. The owner was busy with other things so left the forum in our collective charge and we could sort things out together as they came up, because he would not intervene re moderator stuff.

[It worked out quite well until The Trolls revealed themselves.]

The opportunity to interact in this way gave us a unique experience to engage with the materials and discuss the broader meaning behind those materials.

Prior to this, I had been experimenting with Ideomotor effect and examining the results. In doing so, I had found another way in which to connect with the MBC [which the materials referred to as "First Source"] and some of the group had difficulty in accepting that particular method I had developed.


I had shown them pictures of my devices - which I referred to as "Universal Intelligence Communication Devices" and these are the images I showed them.



_____________________________________

A couple of years go by and we in our forum were engaging in discussing the topic of Crop Circles and the possible relationship of these, with the ideas the material was speaking about.

We discussed the different explanations which were available as to why crop circles happened and in, conjunction with another theory begin explored [we are all connected by an immaterial background reality - aka - MBC] which the material referred to as "Source Reality" ] we came up with the idea of putting it to the test by creating our own and each imputing what we wanted to see in the final result as a crop-circle, all in the understanding that what we were doing was 'asking' for confirmation of Background Reality [BR] through the use of Crop-Circles, and we were not disappointed with the results.

So - as a small team of fairly integrated subjects experimenting with objects in correlation with the BR Theory - we all agreed with the results - what we each asked for - we got, and on more than one occasion.

Since we thus had evidence, it was suggested that we take this evidence to the wider audience, but coincidently the Troll intrusion trashed the place and there was nothing we could do about it as the forum owner refused to intervene, and eventually the forum was swamped and the owner closed it down and - apparently deleted it.

One of the crop-circles which was created at this time, is called The Crabwood, and looks like this:

[bluegreenearth]

I will correct you on one point though. While my intent was to systematically inquire for work at every office in the industrial zone, it was the very first place that I enquired which gave me the job.

Thanks for the clarification. Unfortunately, it doesn't make divine intervention any more plausible than random chance.

Two other points which are significant are.

I was 17.5 years old when that incident happened. I am now just turned 59.

In that time since [41.5 years] I should have already come to the conclusion that the explanation of the outcome was influenced by confirmation bias because - even if I would have continued asking the immaterial for the material - chances would be higher that I would often not always get any answer because.
1: There is no MBC
2: Happy coincidences would not always happen, and I would quickly come to that conclusion, naturally.

I would say that placebo effect doesn't apply to the case we are presently studying. At least, I don't see that you have established that connection.

Again, I wasn't insisting that the placebo effect was the explanation but something like the placebo effect in that you are attributing an outcome to a presumed cause without knowing the actual cause.

What I do see though, is that the case is more and example of a process which develops confirmation bias, and the more often it occurs, the more solid that bias becomes.

For example, if I were to take into consideration the first 17.5 years leading up to these sets of events which led me to investigate 'the power of prayer' - I would have to be honest and say that those years were also used to develop confirmation bias that life was more just an accident and I just had to get through it the best I could, for as long as possible, and not to take my place in the scheme of things as something which could seriously affect outcomes re the rest of the world.

In that bias, I was pretty much content. But of course, no matter the object of the bias, the subject is able to have a change of mind, and therein - through a theist vessel - investigation went 'the other way' and - as far as the last 41.5 years go, no thing offered by the atheist team has lead me to abandon the trip I am currently on - or more to the point - the way I see the trip we are all currently on.

That is because - theistically - the MBC became a sort of Embassy where I reside.

But that is now. Back then I was only learning the ropes.

In that learning, I discovered other ways in which the Embassy could interact with me, and in that I discovered an ensemble of like-minded participants.

I have no interest in whether you retain or change the belief but in how you think critically about it. At this point, I'm not convinced that you've done all the critical thinking necessary to be justifiably confident in the belief.

Case 2:

Back around the start of 2001 onwards, I was interacting on the internet in a Yahoo group.
We were gathered because of our individual mutual interests in something which became somewhat popular quickly and we who were gathered, had engaged with that material as folk who were already quiet aware of the immaterial quality of life's experience - so on that level, we all had this in common.

Eventually we encouraged the owner of the popular site where the material first became public, to create a Forum where we could interact better. The owner was busy with other things so left the forum in our collective charge and we could sort things out together as they came up, because he would not intervene re moderator stuff.

[It worked out quite well until The Trolls revealed themselves.]

The opportunity to interact in this way gave us a unique experience to engage with the materials and discuss the broader meaning behind those materials.

Prior to this, I had been experimenting with Ideomotor effect and examining the results. In doing so, I had found another way in which to connect with the MBC [which the materials referred to as "First Source"] and some of the group had difficulty in accepting that particular method I had developed.


I had shown them pictures of my devices - which I referred to as "Universal Intelligence Communication Devices" and these are the images I showed them.[/color]



_____________________________________

A couple of years go by and we in our forum were engaging in discussing the topic of Crop Circles and the possible relationship of these, with the ideas the material was speaking about.

We discussed the different explanations which were available as to why crop circles happened and in, conjunction with another theory begin explored [we are all connected by an immaterial background reality - aka - MBC] which the material referred to as "Source Reality" ] we came up with the idea of putting it to the test by creating our own and each imputing what we wanted to see in the final result as a crop-circle, all in the understanding that what we were doing was 'asking' for confirmation of Background Reality [BR] through the use of Crop-Circles, and we were not disappointed with the results.

So - as a small team of fairly integrated subjects experimenting with objects in correlation with the BR Theory - we all agreed with the results - what we each asked for - we got, and on more than one occasion.

Since we thus had evidence, it was suggested that we take this evidence to the wider audience, but coincidently the Troll intrusion trashed the place and there was nothing we could do about it as the forum owner refused to intervene, and eventually the forum was swamped and the owner closed it down and - apparently deleted it.

One of the crop-circles which was created at this time, is called The Crabwood, and looks like this:

Given your commentary above, I'm even more unconvinced that you've done anywhere near the level of critical thinking necessary to justify your confidence in the belief.

[William]

William: I cannot really work with statements which do not go into details as to why you are even more unconvinced that I've done anywhere near the level of critical thinking necessary to justify my confidence in their being an MBC.

Are you able to elaborate.

[bluegreenearth]

William: I cannot really work with statements which do not go into details as to why you are even more unconvinced that I've done anywhere near the level of critical thinking necessary to justify my confidence in their being an MBC.

Are you able to elaborate.

You make a fair point. I'll elaborate on my previous post, but it will take me some time to type out my thoughts. So, it might be a while before you receive my response.