Musing on Having Nothing To Hide.

[William]

The stars are out in full force tonight. A sliver of a moon crescents itself upon the black backdrop of the nights sky. I hear my Friend Te Ruru hoot from within the trees behind me.

I place another log on the fire and then pour myself a brew from the kettle sitting in embers I previously scoped to one side of the fire.

I look over to my companion. We have been speaking about our concerns with Christians, and wondering why we both appear to share certain position as to the underlying hidden things which Christians turn a blind eye to in regard to their many different and sometimes opposing beliefs.

I think about my ancient Friend, Manu Iti. He would normally be right here at this very fireside, sharing in the chatting. He must be away on one of his many missions. I hope he will stop by sometime soon, and then use my tablet to send him a quick message, letting him know I am here, and have brought someone with me.

William: So - my potential Friend-in-the-making, to continue with our conversation, I have a story to share which was told to me by an old Friend. It involves science fiction and fact, but in the telling I advise you take it as simply a story. Whether it is true or not, is not the reason I want to share it with you, but simply because I feel there are practical analogies which can be taken from it, in relation to the question of Christians and having nothing to hide.

The main character goes by a number of names, depending on how the other characters see him, but he is a human being and I will use the name the Extraterrestrials in the story call him - that being "Joey".

Now the reason ET call him that is because Joey reminds them of a Kangaroos offspring, in that he has always reacted to his human experience in the manner of a Joey, wanting to bounce around all over the landscape and have fun with it, but very scared of it at the same time, so stays close to his Mothers pouch, which he knows is safe and warm and secure.

But eventually Joey had to leave that nest because the world beckoned and he had grown so big that he couldn't fit anymore, anyway. In being forced to find his own feet, he bounced hither and tither over the nearby-to-his-Mother-landscape, and learned quite quickly that it had been an illusion that he had ever really been safe in that warm Motherly pouch, since his Mother was actually no more safe than anyone else who existed in said landscape.

I reach for my trusty pipe and stoke it with 'Erb. The fire cracks as I light the 'Erb and draw on its sweet smoky flavor. I look over to my companion, and smile. I would love to tell him this story, but don't want to assume he would be interested, even being that the whole point of a Fire, is to tell stories around it.

William: So, would you like to hear more about Joey? Or we can continues where we were a moment ago, if you prefer.

I point to the kettle, indicating to my companion to help himself to a brew.

[POI]

Would you mind first offering your objective? Seems as though you are some sort of generic theist, or deist maybe? What is the ultimate goal of this directed exchange? What would you like to see, as the final outcome, if it were to go completely in your favor?

This arena is completely voluntary. My objective, thus far, is to debate theists, and their god beliefs. The exchanges, for which transpire, remain for many to read, until the site is someday removed. For which, in the mean time, many might run across these threads...

I have been immersed in this topic (apologetics), for a few years now. I stopped you, in the other thread, to assure we did not veer too far off course from the OP topic. So here we are... I'll cut to the chase... What are you after exactly?

Thanx

[William]

My fireside, companion speaks.


POI: Would you mind first offering your objective? Seems as though you are some sort of generic theist, or deist maybe? What is the ultimate goal of this directed exchange? What would you like to see, as the final outcome, if it were to go completely in your favor?

I ponder on these questions, and take a sip of brew before replying.

William: I have no particular preferred outcome in regard to this exchange. I currently see myself as an Agnostic Theist. I have no particular image of The Creator in regard to my theism. It is more a case of I think that the Universe we exist within, is a creation... perhaps some type of simulation - a thought in the mind of The Creator, in which we individuate consciousnesses can interact within.

POI: This arena is completely voluntary. My objective, thus far, is to debate theists, and their god beliefs. The exchanges, for which transpire, remain for many to read, until the site is someday removed. For which, in the mean time, many might run across these threads...

William: So it is part of your objective to share your data so that others might have access to it, now and in future moments. That is one of the reasons I invited you to this Fireside Thread, rather than engage in private.

I find an image and send it to POI.


POI: I have been immersed in this topic (apologetics), for a few years now. I stopped you, in the other thread, to assure we did not veer too far off course from the OP topic. So here we are... I'll cut to the chase... What are you after exactly?

William: Let's see now...I asked you if you and I might focus upon why we are investing time and effort into participating on the Christian Message Board. Is there something important we are trying to convey to the generic Christian? If so, then what?

I poke the fire with my staff, and the embers rise up, briefly giving the illusion they are becoming part of the backdrop of the night sky.

William: You told me that you participate because you like to keep your brain sharp, in defending your position, especially when all comers of religious make assertions and claims, and that you think Christianity receives "special treatment", and seems to be exempt from scrutiny. You said you had many grievances to put out there, to any who will listen.


So part of the reason I am here is to listen and be listened to.

We share similar prior-conditioning, in that we both were indoctrinated. Thus, sharing these things together might be therapeutic.
You also mentioned something about your wife's side of the family being highly religious. and that is another reason you are here... to voice questions, you are unable to discuss within your inner family, as it will cause war.

I am interested in these things...in discussing them and perhaps helping one another to "sort the chaff from the wheat", to use a Jesus-phrase.

I motion my arms toward the general surrounds.

William: This place is where I feel most comfortable. It is designed to engage with role-play - situations and props. Characters and interactivity as a way of engaging the imagination in other ways than simply religious imagery...because - I think that is what we are all doing anyway, so why not take it the extra distance and play with it?

Each to their own on whether they want to get into the spirit of it hereabouts, but the offer is always there to chose to do so, even if at first it is simply sharing the task of keeping the fire fed.

I smile over to my companion. In the distance the faint howl of a Lone-Wolf finds it way to us, on the faint breeze.

[POI]

I have no problem addressing the points mentioned in the aforementioned transaction. But I do not find it interesting to embark upon role-play, poetry, or whatever you call this exactly... Let me know if you wish to continue, without all the unnecessary props?

[William]

My Guest appears to be uncomfortable with this environment. I think about the many times a Christian has interacted with me in this same environment, and make a mental note of that observation. I wonder too, at his mentioning of my having PM'd him.

William: There is no requirement for you to participate in the role-play, and if you are not comfortable with my own posts published in the manner I choose to do so, I guess that ends our brief discussion about those things which concern each of us.

Go well.

I rise and move toward The Whole, and - reaching inside it, I remove a pot. As I take this back to the warm on the embers, I continue;

William: But, if you do choose to stay, I say "Why not enjoy each others company and see what might unfold?"

I place the pot on the embers.

William: Meanwhile I will heat up some of this fine stew, which you are welcome to help me eat when it is ready.

I sit down and reach under my seat and retrieve a bottle. I then reach into my cloak and bring out an old tin mug, pop the top off the bottle and pour the liquid into the cup.
I look over to my companion, and it seems to me his image faded briefly before coming back into focus.

I think of Joey.

I raise the cup.

William: I drink to abundance.

[POI]

I guess I'll engage here, and just ignore all the poetic parts. For they do not interest me.

And just to clarify, I trust you are already aware that my statement made, about, 'having nothing to hide', might be a little hyperbolic I'm not giving you my phone number, street address, social, etc...

What topic, or more, would you like to spotlight first?

But I do feel that many of the things, for which we started to embark upon, seem like worthy topics to explore.

[William]

As I drink from the tin cup, POI tells me that he will stay and commune with me. His image has faded completely out and I now can only hear his voice, but I am content with that. Speaking with Ghosts is part of what I do.

William: I suppose I like the idea of having nothing to hide in the context of having much to learn. As we agreed earlier, it is a tactic which Christians use to not divulge fully what it is they believe in. I think more progress can be made by having nothing to hide in that regard.

I have no particular topic that I want to spotlight first.

I open my tablet, and examine the conversation POI and I have had already.

William: I see I asked some questions so perhaps we can start there?

I read the questions out to my fireside companion.

William: Here. I asked you; "What are your grievances that you think Christians should listen? [bullet points will suffice] Also - is venting the right approach?"

I scroll down the document.

William: You also said to me that you consider this topic therapeutic to speak about and I asked you if the grievances go away and then return, so that you find yourself having to repeat the therapy?

I am also interested in clarifying your comment about voicing questions which you are not allowed to voice in the presence of your wife's highly religious family. Is there some other reason why you feel you have to put up with such a circumstance? Why not just leave them to themselves instead of having to come under their influence and not be allowed to do things which you need to do?

I scroll further...

William: I see too that I mention Satan in relation to Christian beliefs...but we can venture there if need be, at some other time.

I place another log upon the fire and stir the stew.

William: As to my own understanding of my Self, these are as follows;

I open a document on my tablet and read out the information.

William:
♥ Humans were unaware that they were actually Eternal Spirits who agree to experience fully being Human, which meant they had to have no prior knowledge of being Eternal Spirits.
♥ In that state, Humans created all sorts of reasons for why they existed and what happens to them when they 'die'.
♥ Being actually Eternal Spirits, when the body died, they of course carried on existing.
♥ This lead to further interesting results because of the nature of the new reality experience allowed for Eternal Spirits to create through instantly manifesting a reality experience around them, whether they knew that was what was occurring or not.
♥ This feedback loop led to the formation of undesirable creations in sections of the Spirit World.
♥ Jesus' mission was to infiltrate the Human Experience [taking on Human form] but in his case, he would retain his memory of having a prior existence.
♥ Part of his mission was to inform Humans of particular undesirable sections which Eternal Spirits had created for themselves, after having experienced being Humans.
♥ Humans he was interacting with, generally believed that when they died, then that was the end of them - unless they were resurrected at some future time and given new glorified bodies.
♥ Jesus worked with that common belief, in order to seed more desirable Human-based creations into The Spirit World.
♥The rest - as the saying goes - is history...

[POI]

(You) I have not yet been persuaded that the Bible is non-relevant in relation to Theism and "The Question of Creation", not because of Christianity per se, but rather because of Theism as a whole and the possibility we do currently exist within some type of created environment.

(Me) Even if deism should turn out to be true, I have great doubt the Bible is anywhere near 'reality'.

(You) Okay.

****************************

Maybe we can start here...

Why are you a professed theist, and not merely a deist?

[William]

POI seems reluctant to answer my questions and asks me about my position instead.

William: The premise I follow is Deist, I suppose, but I have not been able to rule out a mind behind the Creation, or that mind able to connect with our own individual minds…it could be that what we refer to as our ‘mind’. is actually our brains interreacting with an overarching Mind, which we think of as our own unique mind.

I poke the fire with the end of my stave and take another sip from the cup.

William: For that, I haven’t ruled out that what we think of as physical reality, is itself a projection of that same Creator-Mind. If so, what does that make of us – or what we think of as our bodies and brains, and the environments we are experiencing them in?

I take another sip of the tasty liquid and continue.

William: If it is the case that we exist in some kind of mind, then as I see it, we are extensions of that Mind, rather than what that mind projects. I think this, because it would be the case that we are experiencing something rather than, being that something which is experienced – like consciousness appears to be doing. Consciousness is like The Ghost and the experience is like the Machine.

I gesture with my arms, for POI to take in the surroundings.

William: This place is set up to represent that idea. It works through imagination which is also understood as that which acts as a type of brain-bridge connected with the mind, allowing us to interact with it.

The smell of the stew wafts up to remind me that I have some eating to do. I rise and move back to the Whole, reaching and into it, I pull out loaf of bread.

As to biblical stories, some I don't believe - like The Garden The Flood stories... I find these to be ancient fireside inventions of Humans attempting to explain things to those they have brought into this world.

I sit, and then plate up some of the now hot stew.

Are you sure you won't have something to eat with me? There is plenty here.





 

[POI]

Sure, I guess we cannot absolutely rule out anything. And yes, you have come to your own current assessments, speculations, conclusions, other; presumably. However, if you have been unable to rule out some core mind, I can't help but to reference "Russel's Teapot" to a degree.... Though, I do not make the statement that you are offering a burden of proof. Below is a crude definition, to clarify why I say this...

"The philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making unfalsifiable claims, rather than shifting the burden of disproof to others. Russell specifically applied his analogy in the context of religion. He wrote that if he were to assert, without offering proof, that a teapot, too small to be seen by telescopes, orbits the Sun somewhere in space between the Earth and Mars, he could not expect anyone to believe him solely because his assertion could not be proven wrong. Russell's teapot is still invoked in discussions concerning the existence of God"

Thus, should I even entertain your above statement, regarding "that mind able to connect with our own individual minds…it could be that what we refer to as our ‘mind’. is actually our brains interreacting with an overarching Mind"? Or, are you just spitballing some conceivable ideas?