Is the concept of Original Sin fair?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Metatron
Guru
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:32 pm
Location: Houston, Texas
Been thanked: 1 time

Is the concept of Original Sin fair?

Post #1

Post by Metatron »

I have some concerns about the fairness of Original Sin and would be interested other forum members opinion on this issue.

One of my concerns deals with the account as presented in Genesis. God tells Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil otherwise he will die. Later of course, Adam and Eve are seduced by that rascally serpent, God banishes them from Eden, and death is brought into the world, etc. The problem I have with this is that by definition, not having yet partaken of the famous apple, Adam and Eve have no concept of good and evil and indeed the threat of death is meaningless to them since they also would have no understanding of what death is! Adam and Eve are innocents who have no moral compass with which to make the decision. Its like telling a toddler who has never been disciplined not to eat the really neat looking poisoned candy and then walking away and seeing what happens.


Another thing that bugs me is the implied concept of inheritability of sin, i.e. Adam and Eve sin so everyone else to the umpteenth generation is equally culpable and has a one-way ticket punched to the Really Hot Place. Where is the personal responsibility in that? Indeed, where is free will if the punishment is already in place without a decision having been made? I would think that God at least would want to punish you for the sins that YOU have committed.

Thank you for your time.

AB

Post #459

Post by AB »

Cathar1950 wrote:
Wrong. God did not make us Sin. We chose it.
That is rather overstated. I hardly see where humans have chose to sin or be sinners. This also assumes the concept of sin and the fall and I find that unsupportable.
Ok, so you say there is a peson in the world that is sinless?

AB

Post #460

Post by AB »

Cmass wrote: As an atheist, if I could convert all Christians to think for themselves, I would be very pleased with myself. They can continue with their mythology but not their robotic, blind faith. That is boring, and dangerous.
What has thinking for yourself ever got you? I equate that to living in a dark room: "Hurray! I am thinking for myself... now what..."

User avatar
Cmass
Guru
Posts: 1746
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:42 pm
Location: Issaquah, WA

Post #461

Post by Cmass »

I used a pot being pushed off a balcony in an earlier post. I'll bet Metatron remembers it. Anyway, if someone pushes the plant off the balcony, you know the outcome because of the laws of gravity. But your knowledge doesn't cause the destruction of the plant.
Actually, the plant falling off the balcony is an excellent example of no free will. When pushed off the balcony, the plant will fall. It has no choice. The plant cannot "will" any other outcome. It does not matter how good of a plant it is - how often it blooms, how sweet it smells, how well it tolerates long periods of drought. I will push it off the balcony and it will sizzle and burn in the fire of the neighbors BBQ pit below. No free will.

In this case, since I am the one pushing it off the balcony, I am playing God. I know the outcome already. I know I am going to push the plant off the balcony and exactly what will happen. The plant has no free will.
And actually, neither do I because God has already written the chapter of the story where Chris pushes his beloved plant off the balcony and into the neighbor's BBQ pit.
[/b]

User avatar
Cmass
Guru
Posts: 1746
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:42 pm
Location: Issaquah, WA

Post #462

Post by Cmass »

AB wrote:
Cmass wrote:
Wrong. The original sin is not the reason we were born

Wrong. Without The Fall, we would not exist, we would not have ever been born.
The fact Adam and Eve were man and women and God told them to multiply is the reason we exist. Take the fall out, Adam and Eve still are present and God's request to multiply still remains.

Calling the Fall the reason we exist borders on Lunacy.
Please re-write this one. The quotes got all messed up. It has to be extremely clear because I am multi-tasking & not paying enough attention to this...sorry.

User avatar
Cmass
Guru
Posts: 1746
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:42 pm
Location: Issaquah, WA

Post #463

Post by Cmass »

AB wrote:
Cmass wrote: As an atheist, if I could convert all Christians to think for themselves, I would be very pleased with myself. They can continue with their mythology but not their robotic, blind faith. That is boring, and dangerous.
What has thinking for yourself ever got you? I equate that to living in a dark room: "Hurray! I am thinking for myself... now what..."
Thank you AB! This is absolutely fascinating.
At first glance I thought you were joking. But now I think you are serious....which would mean this is the very first time I have ever seen anyone argue that original thought was not a very valuable trait.
Which, ironically, means this may be an original thought from you!
Thanks again.

I am hereby donating 5 tokens to you for this completely innovative - albeit nutty - statement! (I am totally serious) :D

User avatar
Cmass
Guru
Posts: 1746
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:42 pm
Location: Issaquah, WA

Post #464

Post by Cmass »

What has thinking for yourself ever got you?
AB, to answer your question directly: It has made me a fair amount of money. As an inventor with patented products (some of which you may be using) it has allowed me to help sustain my family. It also brings me and my child much joy in the form of songs that I write and play for him.
Thinking for yourself is wonderful.

AB

Post #465

Post by AB »

Cmass wrote:
AB wrote:
Cmass wrote: As an atheist, if I could convert all Christians to think for themselves, I would be very pleased with myself. They can continue with their mythology but not their robotic, blind faith. That is boring, and dangerous.
What has thinking for yourself ever got you? I equate that to living in a dark room: "Hurray! I am thinking for myself... now what..."
Thank you AB! This is absolutely fascinating.
At first glance I thought you were joking. But now I think you are serious....which would mean this is the very first time I have ever seen anyone argue that original thought was not a very valuable trait.
Which, ironically, means this may be an original thought from you!
Thanks again.



I am hereby donating 5 tokens to you for this completely innovative - albeit nutty - statement! (I am totally serious) :D
Thanks Man!

AB

Post #466

Post by AB »

Cmass wrote:
What has thinking for yourself ever got you?
AB, to answer your question directly: It has made me a fair amount of money. As an inventor with patented products (some of which you may be using) it has allowed me to help sustain my family. It also brings me and my child much joy in the form of songs that I write and play for him.
Thinking for yourself is wonderful.
My statement is not in terms of the wordly things.. earning money, coming up with new songs. etc. My statement is in terms of knowing God and understanding God's Kingdom. Do I still get to keep my tokens?

User avatar
Cmass
Guru
Posts: 1746
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:42 pm
Location: Issaquah, WA

Post #467

Post by Cmass »

My statement is not in terms of the worldly things.. earning money, coming up with new songs. etc. My statement is in terms of knowing God and understanding God's Kingdom.
My statement WAS in terms of this world. You should have known that since I understand a belief in God's Kingdom to be a form of mass psychosis. :crazy:

However, given your belief system, I concede that original thought, creativity, questioning, skepticism - none of these things would help you within the Kingdom of God. They in fact might mess things up. Unquestioning obedience is the only way to go!
But you might want to ponder that one further....there may be some Christians who would strongly disagree with you. (probably along the lines of God gave us these traits to use them etc....)

Yes, you may keep your tokens - but only if you promise more outrageous and original comments to come.

AB

Post #468

Post by AB »

Cmass wrote:
My statement is not in terms of the worldly things.. earning money, coming up with new songs. etc. My statement is in terms of knowing God and understanding God's Kingdom.
My statement WAS in terms of this world. You should have known that since I understand a belief in God's Kingdom to be a form of mass psychosis. :crazy:

However, given your belief system, I concede that original thought, creativity, questioning, skepticism - none of these things would help you within the Kingdom of God. They in fact might mess things up. Unquestioning obedience is the only way to go!
But you might want to ponder that one further....there may be some Christians who would strongly disagree with you. (probably along the lines of God gave us these traits to use them etc....)

Yes, you may keep your tokens - but only if you promise more outrageous and original comments to come.
Thanks man!

By the way, "Unquestioning obedience is the only way to go!" is a very good first step into God's kingdom.

Good night! And take Care!

Post Reply