If science cant explain everything.. Scientific Materialism

[Tart]

I personally think we are all born with a wonder in our consciousness. Something that tells us that our reality might not be as what it seems, that there may be something mysterious and unexplained in our consciousness.. Something beyond our reasoning...

And we see this manifesting in peoples thoughts all the time... There are sooo many claims (even scientific claims) that go beyond our reasoning.. Like mind over matter, or infinite parallel universes, multiverses, aliens, ghosts, the afterlife, telekinesis, out of body experiences, past lives, the "matrix", mysticism, sorcery, magic, etc... We see people, who honestly wonder about the possibilities of many of these things, perhaps all of us have had these kinds of thoughts amusing the unexplained...

I mean even science, and scientist, and even atheist scientist have amused some of these possibilities, like the multiverse.. The multiverse (something that there is no evidence of) is a theory that came up in a rebuttal against God creating THIS universe... (Ill put a scientific video below that suggest "mind over matter" is a real thing)

But then when we come to the idea of God, all of these wonders turn away and people are certain that God cant exist, that miracle cant happen, that there is no after life, there is no soul, etc.... As soon as God gets into the picture, all these wonders that we are born with contemplating, are trashed as a means of mocking and discrediting anything out of the inexplicable, and everything boils down to cold hard science... This is Scientific Materialism.... This is why David Berlinski (atheist philosopher) says in his book "The Devils Delusion" that "scientific atheism is a frivolous exercise in intellectual contempt"... It is this notion that nothing inexplicable exist, that everything is explained, and anything beyond explanation (like God) is mocked...

Its a frivolous exercise in intellectual contempt...

To me, this seems like a complete indoctrination of atheism... And is there any proof that there is nothing beyond these cold hard explanations? No... But it is assumed....

So if you play around with any of these thoughts, how come you discredit God automatically? If something like "mind over matter" is true, how can you say the divine is false? (example: video below)...

(Personally i think Christianity explains in perfectly.. 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11)

[youtube][/youtube]

[DeMotts]

[Replying to post 1 by Tart]

To me, this seems like a complete indoctrination of atheism... And is there any proof that there is nothing beyond these cold hard explanations? No... But it is assumed....

So if you play around with any of these thoughts, how come you discredit God automatically? If something like "mind over matter" is true, how can you say the divine is false? (example: video below)...

Simple... some of us are told something and we believe it, and then look (or not look) for reasons not to. Some of us are told something, and instead assume it to be unproven and look for reasons to believe it to be true. So an atheist is just someone that hasn't been suitably convinced. Every atheist on this board would change their opinion if god descended from the heavens and offered us undeniable proof of his existence. Until that day we remain skeptical.

The thing that always strikes me as difficult to believe about god's existence is the implication of an omnipotent supervisor: the natural order of the universe can be completely upended at any moment, in any fashion, for any reason. If god exists then there can be no predictability to the universe. Physics can change at any moment, so why bothering figuring it out? Morality can change at any moment - god might want us to wipe out a tribe of people like he did the Midianites, so genocide could suddenly be completely justified. We can't possibly condemn a parent that murders their children if they say that god told them to do it - he does have a history of that sort of thing and who are we to say that they didn't hear the true voice of god?

So I choose to wait. I will wait for god to reveal himself or herself to me in a fashion that is undeniable. Until then I'll use the collective logic, reason, and effort of the human race to continue figuring out this reality for myself.

[Overcomer]

DeMotts wrote:

Every atheist on this board would change their opinion if god descended from the heavens and offered us undeniable proof of his existence.

Some of them might, but not all of them would because rejection of God isn't always about valid evidence. I have encountered some who simply don't want God to be real because they want to retain their autonomy, not realizing that what they call "freedom" is really bondage to sin. I have encountered some who don't believe for emotional reasons, not rational ones. They have been hurt in life and blame God for it even though it's always the failure and fault of human beings, not God. And I have encountered some who want to hang on to their sins so much that they refuse to even entertain the evidence for his existence.

The Pharisees give us a great example of this. They see Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead. Do they say, "Truly this man is who he says he is. We must bow down and worship him"? No, they say, "We have to get rid of Jesus as soon as possible because people are following him instead of us."

Jesus could raise an atheist's brother from the dead right before his eyes and if that atheist doesn't want to believe in God, he'll find an excuse, however flimsy, not to.

DeMotts wrote:

If god exists then there can be no predictability to the universe.

Actually, it's precisely because God exists that there IS predictability in the universe. I find it amazing that people think this orderly world came out of disorderly chaos, randomly, by chance.

The origins of modern science rest in the fact that Christians believed that this world was created by a rational, orderly God and that, being made in God's image, they had rational, orderly minds to use in studying the world to understand it.

DeMotts wrote:

Morality can change at any moment - god might want us to wipe out a tribe of people like he did the Midianites, so genocide could suddenly be completely justified.

No, it can't. God's idea of sin NEVER changes because he NEVER changes. As to why God removed some of Israel's enemies, here's the reason:

God's plan of salvation rested in the nation of Israel. Israel was always following pagan gods. If God lost Israel, he would lose his plan of salvation and, therefore, lose all of humanity. He gave both the Israelites and pagan nations what would happen if they continued their evil ways. When they refused to change, he acted, removing the threat to Israel.

DeMotts wrote:

We can't possibly condemn a parent that murders their children if they say that god told them to do it - he does have a history of that sort of thing and who are we to say that they didn't hear the true voice of god?

I assume you're referring to Abraham and Isaac. That whole episode was about one thing: Pagan nations sacrificed their children to their false gods all the time. God was showing us that he didn't want us to sacrifice our children to him, that he would sacrifice his son for us. As he provided Abraham with a ram, he provided us with a lamb named Jesus.

DeMotts wrote:

I will wait for god to reveal himself or herself to me in a fashion that is undeniable.

Given your obvious dislike of the God of the Bible, why would he reveal himself to you? He doesn't force people to believe. He will reveal himself to those who come to him with humility, not arrogance, to those who are willing to understand who he is, what he has done and why he has done it, not someone who condemns him for actions that he condemns out of ignorance of God's motives and character.

I'm sorry to be so blunt, but posts like your frustrate me.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to post 3 by Overcomer]

I'm sorry to be so blunt, but posts like your frustrate me.

Why would a post like that from DeMotts frustrate you? Gods are human inventions, and if you step back and look at the big picture over many thousands of years this is very clear. I take it that you don't believe that any of the Egyptian, Greek, Roman or Viking gods were "real" and only believe (based on your post) in the "god of Abraham." Why is that? If you were born in ancient Greece you'd probably have chosen to believe that the popular gods of those days were real. If you were born in certain parts of India today you may be Hindu. What makes the god that you happen to believe is real ... actually real?

Atheists of today simply don't accept that any of the (literally) thousands of gods that humans have invented exist. There is no physical evidence for their existence, and the many god concepts and stories are so inconsistent with each other that they cannot possibly ALL be true. You have evidently chosen one of the many available religions, for whatever reason, and think the foundational text of that religion (eg. the Christian bible) is divinely inspired and therefore "true." But that has to be a position based purely on faith. I have some Hindu friends who are just as convinced that their religion is the "true" religion as you are that your religion is the only correct one. Why are you right and my Hindu friends are wrong?

Gods and religions are man-made concepts, and the very fact that so many different and incompatible versions have been created over the millennia is pretty good evidence against any of them being "true." The most popular versions in existence today (Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc.) will no doubt be replaced by other versions in the next few thousand years if we humans don't ruin the planet before then, or some astronomical event doesn't wipe us out. Some of us have no need for the crutch of religion and the many god concepts associated with them. Many of these were invented to explain things that had no other explanation because science was in a nascent state, but that isn't the case today and gods are not necessary for that purpose any more, and neither are the religions which have been built around them.

What is frustrating is that so many people in the world today still cling to these bronze age religious ideas and use them as the basis for government policy, justification for war and killing, false hope in things like prayer for curing diseases and ending famines, false promises of an afterlife, and the list goes on. We'll be much better off when these fictitious gods are abandoned and replaced by more valid interpretations of reality.

[DeMotts]

[Replying to post 3 by Overcomer]

No, it can't. God's idea of sin NEVER changes because he NEVER changes. As to why God removed some of Israel's enemies, here's the reason:

God's plan of salvation rested in the nation of Israel. Israel was always following pagan gods. If God lost Israel, he would lose his plan of salvation and, therefore, lose all of humanity. He gave both the Israelites and pagan nations what would happen if they continued their evil ways. When they refused to change, he acted, removing the threat to Israel.

So would you say that the genocide against the Midianites was morally justified to preserve god's plan?

[Tart]

[Replying to post 3 by Overcomer]

I'm sorry to be so blunt, but posts like your frustrate me.

Why would a post like that from DeMotts frustrate you? Gods are human inventions, and if you step back and look at the big picture over many thousands of years this is very clear.

Certainly, gods have been created by humans, and they have opposed to the one and true God... That is a fallen human characteristic, to make false gods... like the FSM for example.

I take it that you don't believe that any of the Egyptian, Greek, Roman or Viking gods were "real" and only believe (based on your post) in the "god of Abraham." Why is that? If you were born in ancient Greece you'd probably have chosen to believe that the popular gods of those days were real. If you were born in certain parts of India today you may be Hindu. What makes the god that you happen to believe is real ... actually real?

I assume you were born in America, and you dont believe in Christianity, or any other religions, right? Kind of funny how that contradicts your own argument... (this is a genetic fallacy)....

Atheists of today simply don't accept that any of the (literally) thousands of gods that humans have invented exist. There is no physical evidence for their existence, and the many god concepts and stories are so inconsistent with each other that they cannot possibly ALL be true.

No physical proof? Did you know the word "physics" comes from Aristotle in a book by the name of "physics", which argued that creation itself is physical proof of God? And the order in nature is physical proof of God?

You have evidently chosen one of the many available religions, for whatever reason, and think the foundational text of that religion (eg. the Christian bible) is divinely inspired and therefore "true." But that has to be a position based purely on faith. I have some Hindu friends who are just as convinced that their religion is the "true" religion as you are that your religion is the only correct one. Why are you right and my Hindu friends are wrong?

You dont believe in Hindu's gods right? Why are you right and everyone else wrong? Just a note that this exact criticism of Christians, that they have the one true God, or the Truth, is a poison atheist themselves think... Everyone is wrong accept atheism... Thats the same argument...

But unlike atheism that has no proof, i point to the positive proof of God, Jesus Christ (Who, FYI, told us the world will have many false prophets and gods)...

Do you guys have any valid reasoning or evidence that atheism is accurate and correct?

Gods and religions are man-made concepts, and the very fact that so many different and incompatible versions have been created over the millennia is pretty good evidence against any of them being "true." The most popular versions in existence today (Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc.) will no doubt be replaced by other versions in the next few thousand years if we humans don't ruin the planet before then, or some astronomical event doesn't wipe us out.

Actually, the positive evdience of God, and Him being "all knowing" reveals to us the truth and prophecy of this message, saying:

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."~Jesus

(note, that was before we even knew there was an entire world)...

Some of us have no need for the crutch of religion and the many god concepts associated with them. Many of these were invented to explain things that had no other explanation because science was in a nascent state, but that isn't the case today and gods are not necessary for that purpose any more, and neither are the religions which have been built around them.

What is frustrating is that so many people in the world today still cling to these bronze age religious ideas and use them as the basis for government policy, justification for war and killing, false hope in things like prayer for curing diseases and ending famines, false promises of an afterlife, and the list goes on. We'll be much better off when these fictitious gods are abandoned and replaced by more valid interpretations of reality.

Well, sorry to dash your hopes but that isnt going to happen (note the prophecy above)...


During this post, you claimed gods are human inventions... Do you have any evidence or reasoning that Christianity is not inspired by God, but instead falsely forged by men?

[Tart]

And to stick on topic....

If some things are unexplainable by science, if we amuse the thoughts that any of these could be true, like mind over matter, or anything else... Why not God?

The video above is pretty valid evidence Scientific Materialism is false, because a mind can change the way matter behaves...

If these things are possible, why should we ever assume a position that Gods miracles arent possible?

Is there any valid reasons we should assume divine acts arent possible?

[DeMotts]

If some things are unexplainable by science, if we amuse the thoughts that any of these could be true, like mind over matter, or anything else... Why not God?

Some of us start from a position of not believing in anything beyond what can be demonstrated. Occam's razor - select the answer with the fewest assumptions. Your "why not??" approach could be applied to all sorts of things. You hear a bump in the closet - the simplest assumption is that something fell off a shelf. But why not assume that there is an animal in the closet knocking things over? You are creating additional assumptions when a simpler answer is probably correct.

The video above is pretty valid evidence Scientific Materialism is false, because a mind can change the way matter behaves...

How does the double slit experiment show that a mind can change the way matter behaves? The double slit shows the fundamental probabilistic nature of quantum phenomena and wave-particle duality. Where in there is metaphysical mind control of matter?

If these things are possible, why should we ever assume a position that Gods miracles arent possible?

Is there any valid reasons we should assume divine acts arent possible?

Tart try this: Imagine coming at these questions from the opposite side of your position. Imagine that you just had your mind completely wiped and you have absolutely no knowledge of the world's religions. What would convince you of the existence of god? And how would you know which one to believe in? What would convince you that divine acts ARE possible?

Here's another fun one: imagine that the human race has it's mind collectively wiped. Would we reconstruct our religions to be the same? Or would we come up with new ones? Would we rewrite science and mathematics to be completely different? Or would we end up with the same answers?

[Tart]

If some things are unexplainable by science, if we amuse the thoughts that any of these could be true, like mind over matter, or anything else... Why not God?

Some of us start from a position of not believing in anything beyond what can be demonstrated. Occam's razor - select the answer with the fewest assumptions. Your "why not??" approach could be applied to all sorts of things. You hear a bump in the closet - the simplest assumption is that something fell off a shelf. But why not assume that there is an animal in the closet knocking things over? You are creating additional assumptions when a simpler answer is probably correct.

Absolutely this could be applied to anything... That is the entire point of this topic...

Note the first 3 paragraphs in Original Post...

I personally think we are all born with a wonder in our consciousness. Something that tells us that our reality might not be as what it seems, that there may be something mysterious and unexplained in our consciousness.. Something beyond our reasoning...

And we see this manifesting in peoples thoughts all the time... There are sooo many claims (even scientific claims) that go beyond our reasoning.. Like mind over matter, or infinite parallel universes, multiverses, aliens, ghosts, the afterlife, telekinesis, out of body experiences, past lives, the "matrix", mysticism, sorcery, magic, etc... We see people, who honestly wonder about the possibilities of many of these things, perhaps all of us have had these kinds of thoughts amusing the unexplained...

I mean even science, and scientist, and even atheist scientist have amused some of these possibilities, like the multiverse.. The multiverse (something that there is no evidence of) is a theory that came up in a rebuttal against God creating THIS universe... (Ill put a scientific video below that suggest "mind over matter" is a real thing)

~Original post

People play with these kinds of thoughts all the time, and even atheists, but then when we get to God it is automatically assumed God cant do anything, the divine doesnt exist, miracles that support God dont happen, and the ability for this transcendent mind of God cant sway physics. (Oh but maybe our mind can sway physics, but not God...)

That is the entire point of the discussion... If we can amuse anyof these things, that even atheists and science amuses, why not Gods abilities? Its like a double standard, and though it doesnt make sense logically, Christianity makes sense of it (the verse quoted in the original post)

The video above is pretty valid evidence Scientific Materialism is false, because a mind can change the way matter behaves...

How does the double slit experiment show that a mind can change the way matter behaves? The double slit shows the fundamental probabilistic nature of quantum phenomena and wave-particle duality. Where in there is metaphysical mind control of matter?

Did you watch the entire video... On how observation can change how matter behaves?

If these things are possible, why should we ever assume a position that Gods miracles arent possible?

Is there any valid reasons we should assume divine acts arent possible?

Tart try this: Imagine coming at these questions from the opposite side of your position. Imagine that you just had your mind completely wiped and you have absolutely no knowledge of the world's religions. What would convince you of the existence of god? And how would you know which one to believe in? What would convince you that divine acts ARE possible?

Here's another fun one: imagine that the human race has it's mind collectively wiped. Would we reconstruct our religions to be the same? Or would we come up with new ones? Would we rewrite science and mathematics to be completely different? Or would we end up with the same answers?

That is like saying "imagine God doesnt exist, what would you believe then?".. Its a nonsensical question... The reason i believe in God is becuase God reveals himself, in creation and through his prophets, witnesses, and specifically thought Jesus Christ... If none of this exists, i would have no reason to believe in it.. And i never created any of this either, and i doubt i would create it.. In fact, i think the evidence shows that no human could have created Christianity but God himself.

And I have had my mind wiped clean! I didnt believe in God until my late 20's... In fact, i thought anything belief would be better to amuse then Christianity... Everything except Christianity... but that is design by God, as noted:

1 Peter 2:

6 For in Scripture it says:

“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.�

7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,�[c]

8 and,

“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.�[d]

They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

Isaiah 53:

He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

It was exactly becuase i investigated Christianity, after all these other beliefs proved to be false, that is why i converted. It was from examining the evidence.. And it certainly wasnt becuase i was pre-wired to believe in it... And in fact, it seemed like i was really pre-wired to not believe in it.... That changed when i actually sought out God for answers.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to post 6 by Tart]

Certainly, gods have been created by humans, and they have opposed to the one and true God...

Every god-based religion claims that their god is the only "true" god. This is a general characteristic of such religions. How do you know the god you believe in is any more or less "true" than any of the other thousands of gods created by humans?

I assume you were born in America, and you dont believe in Christianity, or any other religions, right? Kind of funny how that contradicts your own argument... (this is a genetic fallacy)....

You obviously completely missed the point, which was that there are many different and incompatible religions, each claiming that their god is the "true" god. My question was how anyone knows that their religion's particular god is the true god. But my response was to Overcomer, not you.

No physical proof? Did you know the word "physics" comes from Aristotle in a book by the name of "physics", which argued that creation itself is physical proof of God? And the order in nature is physical proof of God?

This is utterly irrelevant in 2018. Is a philosophical set of arguments from a man living more than 2000 years ago, when science knowledge was a miniscule fraction of what is it today, all you can produce to support any physical proof of a god?

You dont believe in Hindu's gods right? Why are you right and everyone else wrong? Just a note that this exact criticism of Christians, that they have the one true God, or the Truth, is a poison atheist themselves think... Everyone is wrong accept atheism... Thats the same argument...

Again, you're missing the point and evidently don't understand what atheism is. Atheists don't believe in the existence of ANY gods, and atheism is not a belief system. It is simply the lack of belief in gods. Show me some evidence that any god exists and I'm happy to admit I was wrong. Gods are creations in the minds of men/women, and many thousands of them have been invented by humans. Not one of them has ever been shown to exist.

But unlike atheism that has no proof, i point to the positive proof of God, Jesus Christ (Who, FYI, told us the world will have many false prophets and gods)...

Atheism doesn't need any proof, because it does not claim anything for which proof is needed. It is those who believe that certain gods exist that need to supply some sort of proof because they are making a claim of existence. If I claim that mermaids exist then the onus is on me to prove that they do in fact exist. It is not the job of someone who is skeptical of my mermaid claim to prove that mermaids do not exist. The stuff about Jesus Christ and false prophets is just preaching.

Do you guys have any valid reasoning or evidence that atheism is accurate and correct?

Yes ... the complete lack of evidence that any gods exist now, or ever did exist. That is the valid reasoning for taking an atheist position. Again, we don't need evidence to show that an atheist position is "accurate and correct" because we are not making any claims to the existence of something (eg. a god). You don't seem to appreciate that fundamental and important point.

Well, sorry to dash your hopes but that isnt going to happen (note the prophecy above)...

"The prophecy above" is meaningless. Religions come and go and have done so throughout time, and will continue to do so. Come back in 2000 years and see what the religious landscape looks like. No prophecies in the bible or any other holy book have ever come to pass that weren't obvious generalizations.

During this post, you claimed gods are human inventions... Do you have any evidence or reasoning that Christianity is not inspired by God, but instead falsely forged by men?

Since I don't believe that gods of any kind exist, I don't believe that they could inspire anything. Show me evidence that any god of any kind exists and we can debate what they might inspire.