Hey Christians....... Is the bible immoral?

[tryme]

What's up with this?

Deuteronomy 6:1
“Now this is the commandment, the statutes and the rules that the Lord your God commanded me to teach you

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, 20 and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones".


Now, if this Moses guy had encountered the one true living god, why couldn't he grasp some basic modern psychological principles of discipline, attatchment and child rearing? Or even maybe mental illness? And HOW IN THE WORLD DO YOU CALL THIS BOOK HOLY?

[2ndRateMind]

It's a valid question. Seems to me, the OT was the state of the art ethical and theological thinking of a pre-bronze age tribe, namely the Jews, in primitive times. It was, if you like, a first approximation to ethics and theology, which has been developed since, not least because the OT is a written record on which to build.

And it is a written record of an important context. Without it, we would have no inkling of the background into which Jesus was born, and therefore no idea of the paradigm shift He wrought among some Jews, who later became Christians.

And, because of Him, Christians now have a more difficult mission than simply stoning to death recalcitrant and sulky adolescents. It seems we must love them, instead.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 1 by tryme]

If your son was a criminal would you call the police?

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 1 by tryme]

This just shows that the authors of the Bible had absolutely no clue about mental illness.

Also, don't the parents have any responsibility concerning how well they mentor their child? If a child is so utterly rebellious to his or her parents then either the parents are seriously inept, or their child is mentally ill.

But the authors of the Bible never had a clue about reality.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 1 by tryme]

If your son was a criminal would you call the police?

If my son was a criminal that would most likely be my fault, unless my son is mentally ill. But even in that case it would be my fault as a parent for not recognizing the need for professional help early on.

I don't give parents a free pass for complete ineptitude when it comes to raising healthy children as the Bible does. Especially not in our modern day and age when mental illness has been fully recognized as being a possible problem.

We are long past the days of blaming evil demons for possessing our children. At least many of us have moved beyond those ancient superstitious beliefs.

[tryme]

[Replying to post 2 by 2ndRateMind]

I'm not really sure what your position is here. Yes Jesus said some revolutionary and remarkably gentle things for his particular cultural and religious upbringing and had some ideas of the same sort, but he also claimed that he was actually the author of the words "kill your children if they r rebellious" and that those commands still stood until the end of time. So how do you rectify that?

I'm not sure who you mean by "we", because there are frightening number of people that still blame mental illness and even common emotional swings on supernatural forces

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 1 by tryme]

If your son was a criminal would you call the police?

A criminal guilty of what exactly? Notice Deuteronomy 21:18-21 simply mentions "stubborn and rebellious". This could range from something as severe as rape and murder to something as mundane as refusing to clean your room. If your son stubbornly refused to do as you say, would you have him killed?

Unless Deuteronomy 21:18-21 refers exclusively to severe acts of rape and murder, the act of killing your children for stubbornness and rebellion is simply not justified.

[ttruscott]

Now, if this Moses guy had encountered the one true living god, why couldn't he grasp some basic modern psychological principles of discipline, attatchment and child rearing? Or even maybe mental illness? And HOW IN THE WORLD DO YOU CALL THIS BOOK HOLY?

Strawman argument... This passage has nothing to do with child rearing and attachment and a lot to do with psychology. It is NOT about a child! It is an adult family member who is wasting the family's resources and when destitute himself will probably turn to banditry. How many kids do you expect were drunkards so bad a parent could not control him?

And to save him from aggressive parents or his mental illness not being recognized, they had no power to kill him but only to take him before the leaders of the city in full public assembly - they announced the verdict ONLY AFTER all attempts at rehabilitation were deemed failures!

Hebrew writings tell us this law never had to be carried out once it their history but always resulted in the rehabilitation of the young man.

[JP Cusick]

Now, if this Moses guy had encountered the one true living god, why couldn't he grasp some basic modern psychological principles of discipline, attatchment and child rearing? Or even maybe mental illness? And HOW IN THE WORLD DO YOU CALL THIS BOOK HOLY?

Strawman argument... This passage has nothing to do with child rearing and attachment and a lot to do with psychology. It is NOT about a child! It is an adult family member who is wasting the family's resources and when destitute himself will probably turn to banditry. How many kids do you expect were drunkards so bad a parent could not control him?

And to save him from aggressive parents or his mental illness not being recognized, they had no power to kill him but only to take him before the leaders of the city in full public assembly - they announced the verdict ONLY AFTER all attempts at rehabilitation were deemed failures!

Hebrew writings tell us this law never had to be carried out once it their history but always resulted in the rehabilitation of the young man.

I agree with this above.

The text of Deuteronomy is just a threat, and we do not know if any person was ever stoned for this.

The USA has crazy laws with the death penalty but very few ever actually get executed and we have a huge population of 300 million. Back then it was a small tribe and surely no one really wanted to stone their neighbor to death.

The idea of laws is to put fear into the population, and Deuteronomy was a book of civil laws for the ancient State of Judah and Israel.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 1 by tryme]

If your son was a criminal would you call the police?

A criminal guilty of what exactly? Notice Deuteronomy 21:18-21 simply mentions "stubborn and rebellious". This could range from something as severe as rape and murder to something as mundane as refusing to clean your room. If your son stubbornly refused to do as you say, would you have him killed?

Unless Deuteronomy 21:18-21 refers exclusively to severe acts of rape and murder, the act of killing your children for stubbornness and rebellion is simply not justified.

Yes but notice that you are asking for what crime the son committed but seem to assume that stubborn and rebellious implies low grade issues.

I've always assumed common sense when reading the Bible. So let's assume serious crimes.