My Testimony on my Salvation Experience!

[Saint_of_Me]

Hello All. And God Bless. Good to be here. I am a new member and wanted to share my testimony. I am a Born Again Christian after a lifetime of ardent atheism and sinning.

This is what happened to me a little over 18 months ago.......

Well I won't go too deep into it since from my experience I know full well that most people's "testimonies" on their God Experience, or their Getting Saved tends to bore others. Especially non-believers. But suffice to say I was in a miserable state; suicidal; gun in hand, ready to end it all. In a crummy motel room in downtown San Jose, CA.

I had left my wife about a week before. I had lost a business I had--a CrossFit Box i co-owned--from my own recklessness and sinful behavior. (hookers, drugs, all that cliche stuff! Ha!) For some reason out of desperation I picked up a bible. Part of my story here is it was given to me about an hour earier by a guy I never saw before or after downstairs outside my motel. I wont go into how he looked because it too is too clicjhe on how a human angel (I know!) would look. (but he did!)

He goes..."Take this...and do it fast. You look like you need it!) (I really did not look too bad. I am well-groomed and fit and was dressed in pressed jeans and a sports coat).

So I am upstairs, I had a couple shots of chilled vodka (only two! I was not drunk!) and I loaded up the Taurus .38. I opened the bible at random and came to the part where, when Jesus finally expires on the cross the "temple curtain tore in two." (I know this is a metaphor, btw--more on that later.)
So i re-read it over and over. Weird, how it struck me. Obsessed me. I had read it before and considered it just another fabrication by a gospel writer. (I think it was Mark).
My heart-rate speeded-up. I get a ringing in my ears. The room gets bright like a dimmer switch is rotated ion but the light is orange.
Now the good part..the curtain to my window, well, splits. like a laser was cutting it from top to bottom. I actually held it in my hand to try and figure out where the light-laser was coming from but it would just pass through my hand with no pain. I even smelled smoke. And the curtain DID smoke. My smoke alarm in the room went off!

I look outside and that bible guy waves at me ans walks away. I sit in my bed. The curtain is now pure bright orange light, but in two pieces. And the bible is open to that page on the bed and there is a trace--a path of light form the curtain to the page and it lit it up. So I go to the bathroom to splash water on my face and to throw some on the curtain! Ha! but when I come to, t everything is normal, except that curtain is torn int two, still. Wit the edges burnt!

I was overcome with a feeling of total elation and calm. Everything made sense. My state of being and how to get out of my misery. Well, it was gone. it was a narcotic feeling. A state of arousal. Peace with the world. Again, yeah, this all sounds cliche but I'm explaining to the best I can.

I sudden became very tired. Went to sleep and slept for a good 10 hours. When I got up the same feeling of elation was there.Total rejuvenation. I had an insatiable yearning to know God better and read the Word as often as I could. Which I still do. I got back on my feet within a week. Got my business back, everything. (but I did get divorced).

The motel manager accused my of burning the curtain and I had to par for it!

Thank you for the opportunity to tell you my Story. I will be more than happy to expand on any parts of it or answer any questions or critiques.

[otseng]

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[Divine Insight]

Hello, Saint_of_Me,

Since you put your testimony out here on a public forum for critique by non-believers I'll be very glad to explain to you why I personally do not find your testimony compelling.

However, before I begin you need to understand several things.

1. I'm not an atheist in the purest sense of the term. While I can't claim that any "God" exists, I also don't claim that a "God" can't exist. I'm totally open to the possibility either way.

2. After years of researching religions and spiritual philosophies, I've come to the conclusion that if a "God" (or a spiritual essence of reality) exists, then the truth of that reality is far more likely to be found in one of the Easter Mystical religions or philosophies, and not in the Abraham doctrines of the Hebrew, or Christian Bible.

3. Finally, I have never personally been "desperately lost in sin", nor have I ever been "desperately suicidal" either. I openly confess that religious testimonies that contain these elements are the least impressive of all. Especially when it comes to impressing decent people who have valid intellectual reasons for dismissing the entire Biblical narrative, and who have absolutely no rational reason to be feeling guilty or desperate about anything.

So with that in mind, I'll point out a few reasons why I personally do not find your testimony compelling.

But suffice to say I was in a miserable state; suicidal; gun in hand, ready to end it all. In a crummy motel room in downtown San Jose, CA.

This testimony right here tells me clearly that you were obviously in a very depressed and confused psychological state of mind. Psychologists themselves will verify that people who become this desperate are very likely to imagine fantastic things.

--from my own recklessness and sinful behavior. (hookers, drugs, all that cliche stuff! Ha!)

Again, not impressive. This only verifies that you were most likely in an extremely desperate psychological state of mind. And if you were married and seeing hookers at the same time, I can imagine that there was also quite a burden of guilt on your shoulders as well. You may have even been at the point where you realize that you can no longer deny these things to your wife, and others. Extreme desperation with nowhere to turn.

For some reason out of desperation I picked up a bible.

For some reason?

Part of my story here is it was given to me about an hour earier by a guy I never saw before or after downstairs outside my motel. I wont go into how he looked because it too is too clicjhe on how a human angel (I know!) would look. (but he did!)

I see. So a human proselytizer gave you a bible. I'm not surprised.

He goes..."Take this...and do it fast. You look like you need it!) (I really did not look too bad. I am well-groomed and fit and was dressed in pressed jeans and a sports coat).

Your in a crummy motel preparing to commit suicide and you can't imagine why anyone would think that you look like you might need help? Sorry, but all I can imagine here is that you had absolutely no clue how you actually appeared to others. The idea that an evangelical proselytizer would hand a depressed and desperate personal a bible is not the least bit surprising. That particular proselytizer probably "works" that area frequently because that crummy motel is probably in a place where many people who are down and out go. The perfect targets for proselytizers of salvation.

So I am upstairs, I had a couple shots of chilled vodka (only two! I was not drunk!)

Based on the rest of your own testimony thus far your ability to assess yourself in this situation at this time is highly questionable.

My heart-rate speeded-up. I get a ringing in my ears. The room gets bright like a dimmer switch is rotated ion but the light is orange.
Now the good part..the curtain to my window, well, splits. like a laser was cutting it from top to bottom. I actually held it in my hand to try and figure out where the light-laser was coming from but it would just pass through my hand with no pain. I even smelled smoke. And the curtain DID smoke. My smoke alarm in the room went off!

I personally find this to be an extremely weird way for a "God" to intervene in your life. Especially when I stop and think of how many times in your life he might have been able to intervene to nip things in the bud instead.

One of the many reasons I reject the Biblical stories of God is precisely because this God seems to constantly let everything get completely out of control before he intervenes. I hold that any truly wise God who actually cared about people would do his intervening in a more productive manner, (i.e. before things get hopelessly out of control to where someone is preparing to commit suicide over it).

So even if this "God" were to exist, I would not be impressed with his extreme inefficiency at dealing with people's problems and sin.

I look outside and that bible guy waves at me ans walks away.

So this motel proselytizer is still working the area? I'm not surprised.

Why didn't you call him in to report your "Miracle"? And if you truly thought he was an angel why didn't you rush after him to talk with him. Surely you would have had some serious questions for him?

But no, you just "sit in your bed" when this guy walks by and waves:

I sit in my bed. The curtain is now pure bright orange light, but in two pieces. And the bible is open to that page on the bed and there is a trace--a path of light form the curtain to the page and it lit it up. So I go to the bathroom to splash water on my face and to throw some on the curtain! Ha! but when I come to, t everything is normal, except that curtain is torn int two, still. Wit the edges burnt!

Too bad you didn't save the curtain as some sort of evidence. Or at least as a souvenir of your experience. If that would have happened to me I would have taken that curtain home for sure and hung it on my wall to use behind the altar where you would find me praying daily.

I was overcome with a feeling of total elation and calm. Everything made sense. My state of being and how to get out of my misery. Well, it was gone. it was a narcotic feeling. A state of arousal. Peace with the world. Again, yeah, this all sounds cliche but I'm explaining to the best I can.

Why were you overcome with a feeling of total elation and calm? Had you actually prayed to Jesus and requested salvation and forgiveness (you seem to have left that part out if you did).

Why would you take this curtain being burnt in half to mean you were "saved"? Couldn't it have been a sign from God that this is what he has planed for your sinning soul?

I sudden became very tired. Went to sleep and slept for a good 10 hours. When I got up the same feeling of elation was there.Total rejuvenation. I had an insatiable yearning to know God better and read the Word as often as I could. Which I still do. I got back on my feet within a week. Got my business back, everything. (but I did get divorced).

Too bad about the divorce. I guess in this case, with God not all things are possible.

The motel manager accused my of burning the curtain and I had to par for it!

Well, at least you have witness that a curtain had been burnt.

Thank you for the opportunity to tell you my Story. I will be more than happy to expand on any parts of it or answer any questions or critiques.

Well, as I say, you have asked for the critique and so I offered it.

I'm not the least bit impressed by this testimony. Things could have even happened very much as you have said, the curtain being cut in two could have been some sort of hallucination on your part. I don't question the truth of your testimony, I merely point out why I do not find it compelling.

Also, as I have stated, these kinds of testimonies based on extreme desperation are not compelling for me because I am nowhere near in a desperate situation, nor have I ever been (at least not related to extreme "sinning" on my behalf). The times when I was in a desperate or dangerous situation was through no fault of my own. And thus no reason to seek out "salvation" for having caused the desperate situation in the first place.

Finally, when I hear a testimony like yours all I know to say is the following:

If I ever find myself in a situation where I am totally down and out due to my own sinful behavior and I'm preparing to commit suicide, I hope I too have a similar revelation. In the meantime I'm not planning on causing myself to be in such a situation in the first place.


A couple of thoughts and questions:

What about all the desperate sinners who actually do commit suicide? Why didn't God save them like he supposedly saved you?

Why do you think God singled you out as being so very special?

[Divine Insight]

I just had another thought and question concerning your testimony.

After your revelation and miracle with God and the burning curtain you say that you were able to get back on your feet with your business, but that you did end up getting a divorce.

It would seem to me that if the Biblical God had anything to do with this it should have been the other way around. The God should have preserved and restored the "Holy Matrimony" of your marriage that is so important to him, and allowed you to continue to struggle on your own in terms of the business and finances.

Just saying. This scenario doesn't seem to reflect the values that the Biblical God is said to value.

[Divine Insight]

By the way, just for clarification:

I'm really glad to hear that your life has been turned in a more positive and productive direction. I totally support and applaud the positive improvements. And I would in no way want to diminish that, or discourage it.

Just the same, if you're going to post this on a "Debating Christianity" forum and request critique, I have no choice but to offer why I personally do not find it to be compelling.

I am in no way suggesting that the experience was not "real" for you, I'm merely pointing out why it's not "compelling" to me.

I'm offering "critique" as you had invited people to do.

On a personal note, I wish you the very best in life. And I most certainly wouldn't judge you for anything you have done in your life. If it were up to me I would forgive all your mistakes without any need to burn your curtains in half.

[Saint_of_Me]

[Replying to post 3 by Divine Insight]

Hey Divine!

Thanks for your well-thought rebuttal to my testimony. You obviously spent a good deal of time and effort into it, and I DO appreciate it. Even though it sounds as if you doubt its veracity.

Can't say I blame you. When I was an atheist I would not have believed it either. I would have chalked it up to either the teller of the tale being drunk, or perhaps he suffered some sort of psycotic break. So....no hard feelings.

All I can say is that the events happened exactly as I said they did. And that I have no history of mental health issues. None. Or alcoholism. I was aware when I admitted in my post that I had a couiple drinks that some would immediately jump to the conclusion I simply got hammered and imagined the whole thing. But reast assured I was NOT drunk. If I was, I would not have ever admitted to your guys of having had a couple shots. Why do this? I knew it to be a credibility factor.

It's just that I wanted to be completely honest. SO I oncluded it.

I tried to go back and offer to BUY the Burnt Curtain, and pay for a new one. But the motel Manager would have none of it. He was angered at me. Thinking I did it myself. I DO have no doubt this whole intervention by God was in reference to the bible story of the tearing of the Temple Veil, when Jesus gave up the Ghost. Many do not know the reaosn for this in the Gospels. But the reason for God tearing the Veil was to open up the Holy of Holies--that Word and Presence of God--to ALL. So this was a metaphorical imagery God sent to me.Saying I needed to accept his invitation to come into his Fold.

Why don't other desperate sinners in need of God recieve the same sort of Grace I did? I do not know. I do not profess to understand all of God's ways. I only kow a little. I can only attest to what He did for me. That is all.

Oh...as far as why the divorce. Well, my ex-wife IS an Atheist. Perhaps God felt she would have been detrimental to my devoting my life to Him? (which I HAVE decided to do, BTW). Also, WHY does the RCC believe priests should not marry?

Thanks again. God Bless.

http://www.gotquestions.org/temple-veil-torn.html

[Divine Insight]

Can't say I blame you. When I was an atheist I would not have believed it either. I would have chalked it up to either the teller of the tale being drunk, or perhaps he suffered some sort of psycotic break. So....no hard feelings.

I confess, that this certainly seems to me to be the most rational explanation. However, I have been thinking about this tonight whist cleaning my house.

I can even go this far with you,....

There are people who profess that our reality is observer created. There are people who preach the "Power of Belief" and claim that if we believe in something strongly enough we can actually cause it to become manifest in reality. Even Jesus is attributed with having said that if we have the faith of a mustard seed we could move mountains. And many people who believe in this "Power of Belief" often point to this and claim that this is what Jesus himself was talking about.

So I'm willing to entertain your story as having been a real event precisely as you have described right down to the curtain being physically burned in half due to the power of your own vivid imagination which was so powerful it actually became manifest in physical reality.

Having said this, I will grant you also the the original dismissal of the story based on pragmatic rationalism is more compelling for me, however, I confess that this second scenario where I entertain an "Observer Created Reality" and the "Power of Belief", might also have some potential for being true.

This would entirely vindicate your actual experience, without loaning support to the Abrahamic or Biblical picture of God.

Now you may ask, "Why am I so determined to dismiss the Biblical God?"

Well, for one thing, I have already been amply convinced by the Bible itself that the Biblical God would need to be an absolute jerk, and a petty one at that. Please understand that this is my opinion and perception.

Your tale of this God pulling a stunt as you have described in a cheap motel room when you are extremely distraught in grief, only adds to the pettiness of this God, IMHO.

In short, if your testimony is true and this God actually exists, this only confirms my suspicions that this God is extremely petty. IMHO, he waits far too long before intervening in people's lives, and then when he does intervene he does so in totally unimpressive ways, (again IMHO).

So if I were going to believe the precise details of your story as having actually occurred as you describe, I still wouldn't conclude that this is an indication of the existence of the Biblical God. At best, it might give some credence to the philosophies that our reality is observer created and given enough emotion and belief we can set things on fire with nothing but pure imagination.

I'm mean seriously.

I'm sorry, but I don't find your experience the least bit compelling in terms of the Biblical God. All it suggests to me is that if the Biblical God does indeed exist and pulls the kind of stunts that you have described here then he's totally lost my respect to be sure.

That's all I know to tell you.

If this God wants to impress me he's going to have to show himself to people who aren't so emotionally distraught and desperate that they are about to commit suicide.

As I've already pointed out earlier, your type of testimony only suggests to me that in order for me to ever get a sign from this God I would first need to become a hopeless distraught sinner who is on the verge of suicide. If that's what it takes to get a sign from this God then I hope I never ever see any sign form this God.

I don't plan on becoming so hopelessly distraught that I would actually need a God to burn drapes in half just to convince me not to commit suicide.

So these kinds of testimonies just aren't compelling. They might be compelling to others who are in a state of extreme desperation brought about by self-destructive behaviors, and who are are filled with extreme guilt about broken marriages, etc.

But they just aren't very compelling for someone like myself. If the situation you have described is what it takes to get a sign from God, then I don't expect to be seeing any signs of God anytime soon. And hopefully never in my life. I'm 65 years old now. I've never been at the bottom of the "Sin Barrel" trying to scrap my way out, and I can't see a time in the future when I would end up in that situation.

These types of scenarios are just not something that I can identify with.

Also, surely if there is a God going around "saving" people who are that sinful, then I would certainly have no need to worry about being condemned by that God anyway.

So where would there be any incentive for me to turn to this religion?

Clearly this religion would be for people who are seriously down and out due to extremely sinful behaviors.

In fact, I have often said that I can't imagine anyone believing in Christianity unless they are first convinced that they are extremely guilty of being unworthy of God and being extremely sinful.

So it doesn't surprise me that people who find themselves in that situation in life would turn to this religion. The religion would make sense to them. But it makes no sense to those of us who are not hopeless lost in sin to the point of being depressed and suicidal over it.

So I would rather believe in an "Observer Created Reality" and that you caused the drapes to burn in half by the power of your own imagination than to believe that the Biblical God was behind it.

This would preserve and explain your experience, without the need to support Hebrew mythology.

[puddleglum]

[Replying to post 6 by Saint_of_Me]

I am glad to hear that you have decided to serve God. I also find the link to gotquestions.org encouraging. It show you are looking in the right places to learn about him.

[puddleglum]

[Replying to post 7 by Divine Insight]

Clearly this religion would be for people who are seriously down and out due to extremely sinful behaviors.

From God's perspective all of us are down and out and we need God's help and salvation. You may not have experienced the same kind of problems that Saint_of_Me has but you are as much a sinner as he was and you need to be saved just as much as he did.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 7 by Divine Insight]

Clearly this religion would be for people who are seriously down and out due to extremely sinful behaviors.

From God's perspective all of us are down and out and we need God's help and salvation. You may not have experienced the same kind of problems that Saint_of_Me has but you are as much a sinner as he was and you need to be saved just as much as he did.

This is precisely the kind of nonsense that this religion requires must be true in order for it to be justified. This is, in fact, a very strong piece of evidence why this religion is necessarily false.

Let's assume that the experience Saint_of_Me had truly came from this God. What kind of a message would this God be sending to me (and people like me) through the testimony of Saint_of_Me?

Well, this God would basically be saying to me:

Hey DI, look at Saint_of_Me. He cheated on his wife and committing adultery with paid prostitutes. He took all manner of drugs and alcohol. His sins were so great that even he was burdened with so much self-guilt and shame that he was desperately prepared to end his own life. And so I revealed myself to him so that he has absolutely no need to have any "faith" in anything since I gave him absolute proof of my existence even though he was denying me right up to the moment I revealed myself to him.

So what do you say DI? Are you going to continue living the clean life? Are you going to take the chance that I'll never reveal myself to you? Are you going to risk going to hell for being Mr. Nice Guy?

Well, here's my message to you DI, you are no better than those who commit adultery, even though you have never even considered committing adultery in your entire life. You are no better than those who hire harlots to have meaningless sex with even though you wouldn't even be interested in doing that if it was offered to you for free. You are a disgrace DI, and I will never reveal myself to you, or any decent people like you or like that disgustingly nice Mother Teresa. You people better take note that the only way to get to know me on a personal basis is to start committing some pretty powerful sins until you've destroyed your life to the point where you are desperately prepared to commit suicide. Then, and only then, will I reveal myself to you.

That would necessarily be the message here Puddleglum.

Not a good message at all. Totally unimpressive and not the least bit compelling.

Moreover, if that's a valid description of how our creator behaves, then all I can say is that I'm ashamed of our creator. If I thought that this was the truth of reality I too would be depressed and suicidal. Not because of anything I've done, but because I would be so hopelessly depressed to know that I had been created by such an ignorant God.

This whole scenario and testimony only reinforces my current view that if Christianity is true it's the greatest nightmare I've ever known.

If this is the way our creator works, then I'm sick to my stomach. It's certainly not a creator I would rejoice over. This would be the worst news I can imagine.

This would be a God who exhibits absolutely no intelligence or compassion at all. An extremely untrustworthy God. He reveals himself to hopeless sinners who have destroyed their own marriages via committing adultery with paid harlots, but he refuses to reveal himself to those he PROMISED to reveal himself to like Mother Teresa, a nun who devoted her entire life to serving Jesus the Christ.

Sorry, but if this testimony is supposed to be convincing or compelling it fails miserably. All this testimony does is describe a God that I could never respect.

So it wouldn't be any good even if it were true. It would be a God that no decent person could ever trust.