I have never gotten a straight answer to what should be a critically important question for any Christian - especially as they persistently judge others for violating any of the 613 mitzvot that they contend have NOT been fulfilled - like homosexuality.
Which commandments have been 'fulfilled'?
What specific scripture supports your contention?
Exactly WHICH commandments did Jesus 'fulfill'?
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- Strider324
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Exactly WHICH commandments did Jesus 'fulfill'?
Post #1"Do Good for Good is Good to do. Spurn Bribe of Heaven and Threat of Hell"
- The Kasidah of Haji abdu al-Yezdi
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Post #11
[Replying to post 8 by Strider324]
one must learn the difference between Laws and ordinances.ordinances are of the world meaning man made dogma. now even when one breaks the Law ie sins they only have to ask to be forgiven.but the law is still in effect the ten commandments still stand except Christ became or fulfilled the Sabbath ie Rest.only two sins still require death and thats rape and murder not kill murder..God wants the innocents protected.
one must learn the difference between Laws and ordinances.ordinances are of the world meaning man made dogma. now even when one breaks the Law ie sins they only have to ask to be forgiven.but the law is still in effect the ten commandments still stand except Christ became or fulfilled the Sabbath ie Rest.only two sins still require death and thats rape and murder not kill murder..God wants the innocents protected.
Last edited by charlo921 on Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Strider324
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Re: Exactly WHICH commandments did Jesus 'fulfill'?
Post #12What scriptural evidence do you have of this? Also, homosexuality is an abomination in the Law and was punishable by death. If the Laws that required death are no longer applicable, then why are homosexuals still considered abominations? Homosexuality was not covered by an 'ordinance'.charlo921 wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Strider324]
Christ became our Sabbath ie Rest.He brought in forgiveness doing away with ordinances which required death.other than that the law not ordinances remain its still unlawful to steal or cheat on your spouse.ordinances required a priest thats no longer needed ..hope that helps
"Do Good for Good is Good to do. Spurn Bribe of Heaven and Threat of Hell"
- The Kasidah of Haji abdu al-Yezdi
- The Kasidah of Haji abdu al-Yezdi
Re: Exactly WHICH commandments did Jesus 'fulfill'?
Post #13[Replying to post 12 by Strider324]
eating pork is written to be an abomination..if we break commandments we pay the price we reap what we sow its more or less guidance on how to be healthy in the flesh...these things are of the flesh Gods after the spirit body He desires love. if we love God he loves us it doesn't matter what sins we have.
eating pork is written to be an abomination..if we break commandments we pay the price we reap what we sow its more or less guidance on how to be healthy in the flesh...these things are of the flesh Gods after the spirit body He desires love. if we love God he loves us it doesn't matter what sins we have.
Re: Exactly WHICH commandments did Jesus 'fulfill'?
Post #14[Replying to post 12 by Strider324]
Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross...Heres one scripture that lets us know ordinances are done away with.often in translation the words are misused.meaning sometimes it says law in scripture but in the greek its actually ordinance,and vise versa
Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross...Heres one scripture that lets us know ordinances are done away with.often in translation the words are misused.meaning sometimes it says law in scripture but in the greek its actually ordinance,and vise versa
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Post #15
It is difficult to keep track. Some of the rules and prohibitions from the Old Testament still apply while others do not, according to Christians. Asked how to differentiate between the two, Christians have some difficulty. The easy ones are those which are either explicitly reinforced in the New Testament or repudiated in the New Testament. But no guiding principle can be found in the New Testament as to which of God's commandments can safely be ignored and which ones still need to be followed.Strider324 wrote: [Replying to post 7 by bluethread]
I appreciate you taking the time to offer a response, but it doesn't fully address my question.
If I take your meaning, then all of the OT commandments are still in force - consistent with what Jesus said about 'The Law' every time he was asked.
But here is the conversation I have had with christians almost every day for 40 years:
"Homosexuality is wrong."
"Why?"
"It says so in the bible."
"The bible also says a child should be stoned to death for being disobedient."
"No, Jesus 'fulfilled' all of that OT jewish stuff."
"What does that mean?"
"It means we no longer have to follow the OT commandments."
"So why follow the OT commandment against homosexuals?"
"Um... because that's in the NT."
"But if Jesus 'fulfilled' the Law, and the prohibition against homosexuals was part of the Law in the same way that stoning children was part of the Law - then WHY is the prohibition against homosexuals in the NT, while stoning children is not? Which of the 613 commandments were 'fulfilled' in the manner you suggest - meaning they are no longer applicable - and which were not?"
This is where the cogent answers from these christians always stop.
- How is it that you distinguish between those commandments of God you follow and which ones you ignore?
- What is the source you use to validate the methodology in question 1?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
- bluethread
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Post #16
I understand your frustration with those who make that argument. I think they duck the commandment regarding the rebellious child, because it does not fit the romantic philosophies of western society. I believe that romanticism is antithetical to the Scriptures. Adonai's people are called to live according to Adonai's ways and not the ways of Rome. Yeshua came in part to demonstrate this. He fulfilled HaTorah by living it as we are to do. That is, of course, using the term as an overarching principle. The term when used in context generally refers, in my opinion, to rabbinic comparison.Strider324 wrote: [Replying to post 7 by bluethread]
I appreciate you taking the time to offer a response, but it doesn't fully address my question.
If I take your meaning, then all of the OT commandments are still in force - consistent with what Jesus said about 'The Law' every time he was asked.
But here is the conversation I have had with christians almost every day for 40 years:
"Homosexuality is wrong."
"Why?"
"It says so in the bible."
"The bible also says a child should be stoned to death for being disobedient."
"No, Jesus 'fulfilled' all of that OT jewish stuff."
"What does that mean?"
"It means we no longer have to follow the OT commandments."
"So why follow the OT commandment against homosexuals?"
"Um... because that's in the NT."
"But if Jesus 'fulfilled' the Law, and the prohibition against homosexuals was part of the Law in the same way that stoning children was part of the Law - then WHY is the prohibition against homosexuals in the NT, while stoning children is not? Which of the 613 commandments were 'fulfilled' in the manner you suggest - meaning they are no longer applicable - and which were not?"
This is where the cogent answers from these christians always stop.
If you are really interested in the commandment regarding rebellious children, I would be happy to address that. However, if it is just an appeal to Christian romanticism, then you have your explanation.
- Strider324
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Post #17
[Replying to post 16 by bluethread]
My interest is purely in determining which of the 613 commandments found in the OT are no longer in affect and what scripture, if any, provides the answer. We seem to be in accord that christians are all over the place in their understanding of what the answer is.
Everywhere Jesus is asked about the Law, he is consistent in stating that ALL of the Law must be adhered to. AFAICT, only Paul promulgates the convenient notion that while Jews must continue to follow the Law, that christians are no longer required to - because Jesus 'fulfilled' the Law. I assume that Paul sees it as only a happy coincidence that removing the strictures of the Law resulted in a much easier path to acquiring converts to his new religion.... but I digress.
So , the OP question still remains - Exactly WHICH commandments did Jesus 'fulfill'?
My interest is purely in determining which of the 613 commandments found in the OT are no longer in affect and what scripture, if any, provides the answer. We seem to be in accord that christians are all over the place in their understanding of what the answer is.
Everywhere Jesus is asked about the Law, he is consistent in stating that ALL of the Law must be adhered to. AFAICT, only Paul promulgates the convenient notion that while Jews must continue to follow the Law, that christians are no longer required to - because Jesus 'fulfilled' the Law. I assume that Paul sees it as only a happy coincidence that removing the strictures of the Law resulted in a much easier path to acquiring converts to his new religion.... but I digress.
So , the OP question still remains - Exactly WHICH commandments did Jesus 'fulfill'?
"Do Good for Good is Good to do. Spurn Bribe of Heaven and Threat of Hell"
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- McCulloch
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Post #18
Not only that, but the meaning of fulfill in this context. The word fulfill [font=Georgia]πλη�ωθῇ[/font] occurs in the NT, 22 times. Most often it is in reference to a prophesy being fulfilled. The passage we're discussing is Matthew 5:17, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill."Strider324 wrote:So , the OP question still remains - Exactly WHICH commandments did Jesus 'fulfill'?
That uses a completely different word from Matthew 5:33, "Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill [[font=Georgia]ἀποδώσεις[/font] related to the word used in 1 Corinthians 7:3, Galatians 6:2] your vows to the Lord.’" This word has the sense of discharging a duty.
One common Christian teaching from Matthew 5:17, is that the complex set of laws given by God to his people, no longer apply to the faithful, because Jesus somehow rendered it unnecessary for Christians to obey the law, they are now under grace.
Rick Walston, Columbia Evangelical Seminary (CES) wrote:So, is the Law (Ten Commandments) for today? Oh, yes it is. For every person who is not in Christ, the Law is still in effect. It shows them their sin, and if they do not repent, it will be their judge. However, for those who come to Christ in faith and trust in Him, the Law has outlived its usefulness. Remember, the Ten Commandments are not "guidelines" to live by; they are the diagnostic tool God uses to show us that we need His Son. Once we have allowed "doctor" Jesus to save us from our sins, the x-ray is no longer needed (it has done its job).
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
- bluethread
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Post #19
McCulloch wrote:Not only that, but the meaning of fulfill in this context. The word fulfill [font=Georgia]πλη�ωθῇ[/font] occurs in the NT, 22 times. Most often it is in reference to a prophesy being fulfilled. The passage we're discussing is Matthew 5:17, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill."Strider324 wrote:So , the OP question still remains - Exactly WHICH commandments did Jesus 'fulfill'?
That uses a completely different word from Matthew 5:33, "Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill [[font=Georgia]ἀποδώσεις[/font] related to the word used in 1 Corinthians 7:3, Galatians 6:2] your vows to the Lord.’" This word has the sense of discharging a duty.
One common Christian teaching from Matthew 5:17, is that the complex set of laws given by God to his people, no longer apply to the faithful, because Jesus somehow rendered it unnecessary for Christians to obey the law, they are now under grace.Rick Walston, Columbia Evangelical Seminary (CES) wrote:So, is the Law (Ten Commandments) for today? Oh, yes it is. For every person who is not in Christ, the Law is still in effect. It shows them their sin, and if they do not repent, it will be their judge. However, for those who come to Christ in faith and trust in Him, the Law has outlived its usefulness. Remember, the Ten Commandments are not "guidelines" to live by; they are the diagnostic tool God uses to show us that we need His Son. Once we have allowed "doctor" Jesus to save us from our sins, the x-ray is no longer needed (it has done its job).
The problem with this doctrine is that Paul tell us that the faith of Avram was reckoned as righteousness. The problem many have with understanding Paul and "the law" is that Paul uses the term law to refer to several things from HaTorah to rabbinic teaching to natural laws, as the term Torah can refer to many things from a simple teaching to the commandments given at Sinai. One must carefully examine the context, in order to determine which "law" Paul is referring to in any particular passage. That is why I personally do not see Paul as one who minimizes HaTorah or living in accordance with it. Therefore, I would say that Yeshua fulfilled all of HaTorah in the Scriptural sense and none of it as it is understood in Christian doctrine.
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Post #20
Ribbi,bluethread wrote:Well, let's look at the ones you specifically listed.Strider324 wrote:Cool, so in what manner did Jesus 'fully exemplify what was being spoken of' regarding the commandments not to murder, not to rape, not to commit the sin of having sex with another man, not to plant different crops together - or indeed the other 609 commandments delineated in the OT?bluethread wrote: Given the use of the term "fulfilled" in relation to passages that do not deal with commandments, it can not mean completed, but must mean fully exemplified what was being spoken of.
Not to murder. - Mt. 5:21-22 "Ye have heard that it was said by them (scribes and Pharisees) of old time, Thou shalt not kill ; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say , Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
Not to rape - There is no direct commandment in the Tanakh regarding that. However, there are examples that show it to be wrong due to the fact that it disrespects women. In every encounter with a woman, Yeshua shows them respect equal to or greater than to men.
not to commit the sin of having sex with another man - We have no record of Yeshua doing such a thing. Moreover, we see Yeshua showing nonsexual affection toward other men. Thus showing that affection is not wrong, but homosexuality is.
not to plant different crops together - He speaks of the principle in speaking of patching a garment and wineskins. Mk. 2;21-22 "No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old coat; if he does, the new patch tears away from the old cloth and leaves a worse hole. And no one puts new wine in old wineskins; if he does, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the skins will be ruined. Rather, new wine is for freshly prepared wineskins."
That last one could be a bit of a stretch, but the point isn't that we have perfect examples of Yeshua clarifying every commandment. The point is that whatever He did or spoke touching any commandment was not to destroy the law, or the prophets but to fully exemplify them. The context is the light and the bushel basket. His was not extinguishing the light of the Tanakh, but letting it shine.
The wineskins. A puzzle, aye? "a change also of the law." New covenant. First you gotta have a new law. To fulfill the law one was added, but it was added after the murder and ascension of Jesus Christ. Got it Ribbi? The new law was put into effect through angels by the Mediator. Got it now Ribbi?