Do Religions Harm More Than Help?

[ElCodeMonkey]

Especially speaking of Christianity, there's often a feeling that churches and church people do a lot of good for the community or less fortunate people. For non-Christians, I think this enables a passive stance on not attempting to "convert" people to Atheism or Agnosticism. That, along with the stance that one should not push their opinions on others, of course.

But what if it's hurting people? What if more people are suffering and dying because of it? In my opinion, this belief system is damaging people greatly which rises a desire in me to do something about it. Perhaps it's from my former Christian upbringing that makes me want to make an impact in the world, but it's also that upbringing that I feel has damaged me in many ways. It wasn't so much my "choice" to be Christian as it was my life circumstances filling my tabula rosa. I'm not sure if there's much hope for converting people in the throws of religion, but perhaps there could be campaigns to help guide people away from that route?

[Divine Insight]

In my opinion, this belief system is damaging people greatly which rises a desire in me to do something about it.

There is no question that it is damaging to many people. I have met many people who have been severely damaged by others over this religion. Including many children who have been damaged by their own Christian parents entirely in the name of this religion and Jesus as "The Christ".

This religion caused me great personal damage in many very profound ways. And ironically the greatest damage occurred not after I had realize the religion was bogus, but actually back when I actually believed the religion was true. In other words, the greatest damage it caused me was when I was a Christian. I had no clue at the time just how profoundly damaged I was. The results of that damage were cumulative and actually became more damaging as I got older.

Had I been born in a family of witches or Taoists (Wicca is my preferred spiritual paradigm today) I feel certain that I would have had a far healthier life in all areas including spiritual, physical, and ecological. Even having been born to intelligent atheists would have been better than Christianity. And my parents were actually GOOD parents. I'm not blaming them at all. They were damaged by the religion as well. Although I don't think they ever realized that it was their religion that was damaging them.

~~~~

The bottom line for me concerning Christianity is not that the religion exists. I couldn't care less if other people want to believe in this religion for themselves.

The problem with Christianity is that it is a jealous-God religion based on extreme arrogance and bigotry against anyone who doesn't believe that Jesus was "The Christ" and that the Old Testament is the "True Word of God".

Like I say, I wouldn't even care if Christians believe this for themselves as a matter or pure personal faith. Where Christianity becomes so obnoxious and invasive is when it proclaims that anyone who isn't a member of this cult is a heathen who is refusing to obey some supposedly all-righteous creator who represents nothing other than LOVE.

Nothing could be further from the TRUTH.

Christianity is almost entirely about religious bigotry and condemnation in the name of Jesus as "The Almighty Christ" who will condemn anyone who merely doesn't believe in HIM and who refuses to join the Christian hate cult in Jesus' name.

It's not just about accepting Jesus. You need to join the Christian hate cult and condemn everyone else who isn't a member of the cult in Jesus' name too!

Just try to accept Jesus whist renouncing Christiandom. It's impossible. Christiandom will nail you to a pole if you try. They will condemn you as being a fraud and liar, and renounce your relationship with Jesus. Because Christiandom OWNS JESUS!

And that is their nemesis.

And they use Jesus as a pasty to uphold the idea that the ignorance and immorality of the Old Testament represents the "Word of God".

Oh, don't get me started.

Let me just agree with you. Yes, Christianity (and all the Abrahamic jealous-God religions including Islam) are extremely negative and harmful to humanity.

I agree.

[Darias]

[Replying to post 1 by ElCodeMonkey]

As an anti-theist, I agree. Even the most benign false beliefs can have negative consequences in life. Not to single out Christianity but if your parents used the fear of hell to convert you, or if you believe that all your decisions are a part of God's plan, or if you donate to Uganda with the best of intentions, only for that money to support a regime that plans to round up all the homosexuals there -- all these things have a negative impact on your life and others.

Smoking, as well as abusing drugs and alcohol, does the same. But the only thing you can do, is to debate. Forcing people to adhere to your own standards via voting is what authoritarians do... and it often has the opposite effect of reducing the thing you don't want to see exist in society.

[ElCodeMonkey]

Even having been born to intelligent atheists would have been better than Christianity.

"Even Atheists" eh? Boy, how terrible :-p. My point is especially intelligent atheists is better!

While you point out a lot of the issues with Christianity, the harm I'm referring to goes beyond simply the arrogance and feeling like they're jerks. In my particular instance, I'm saying Christianity "ruined my life" because I made extremely stupid decisions with the idea that it was "God's Will" or that God would protect me. I've obviously survived, and I quite enjoy my life as it is, but boy was it a pain to get here and who knows what it could have been. If you're interested you can read more about it here: https://sites.google.com/site/hapticsyn ... of-my-life

or if you believe that all your decisions are a part of God's plan, or if you donate to Uganda with the best of intentions, only for that money to support a regime that plans to round up all the homosexuals there -- all these things have a negative impact on your life and others.

Darias is hitting it more on the head to what I'm thinking. Even moreso, I think "supernatural thinking" prevents proper research to help cure people of diseases or otherwise aid their health, it redirects the efforts of intelligent and compassionate people to instead spread a belief rather than actually helping people, etc. Sure, churches might do a thing here or there like building wells for clean water, but it comes at a devastating price.

For me, I wasted many years "serving God" at the expense of my family, my education, and growing real friends. Being that I enjoy intelligent scrutiny, I eventually came out of religion, but for the years I was in it, who knows, perhaps I could have educated myself and become the next Einstein rather than running away from college, marrying my now-wife, and going to seminary school to become missionaries.

[ElCodeMonkey]

Just try to accept Jesus whist renouncing Christiandom. It's impossible. Christiandom will nail you to a pole if you try. They will condemn you as being a fraud and liar, and renounce your relationship with Jesus. Because Christiandom OWNS JESUS!

It's not impossible because I don't care what Christiandom thinks . On top of that, I believe it's impossible to like Jesus and be a Christian simultaneously! Christianity is the Antichrist they're waiting for. I consider myself a disciple of Jesus as depicted in Matthew, Mark, and Luke and an anti-Christian. I find the teaching in those books to be superb for the most part minus all the miracles. The book of John is really the only one that Christiandom actually likes and preaches. It's the only gospel that says Jesus came to die as a sacrifice for our sins since we suck. The others say Jesus came to teach the Kingdom of Heaven which is a series of "stop sinning" messages because it's our responsibility to live civilly. If everyone did as Jesus taught in the synoptic gospels, we would indeed be living in a kingdom of heaven. If everyone subscribes to the book of John, it would be hell as everyone does evil then prays before dinner and bed.

[Darias]

or if you believe that all your decisions are a part of God's plan, or if you donate to Uganda with the best of intentions, only for that money to support a regime that plans to round up all the homosexuals there -- all these things have a negative impact on your life and others.

Darias is hitting it more on the head to what I'm thinking. Even moreso, I think "supernatural thinking" prevents proper research to help cure people of diseases or otherwise aid their health, it redirects the efforts of intelligent and compassionate people to instead spread a belief rather than actually helping people, etc. Sure, churches might do a thing here or there like building wells for clean water, but it comes at a devastating price.

For me, I wasted many years "serving God" at the expense of my family, my education, and growing real friends. Being that I enjoy intelligent scrutiny, I eventually came out of religion, but for the years I was in it, who knows, perhaps I could have educated myself and become the next Einstein rather than running away from college, marrying my now-wife, and going to seminary school to become missionaries.

I forgot to cite the information I was referring to. Here is the video that shows the connection between tithing, missionary work, and Ugandan anti-gay legislation.

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The last moments of the video are particularly chilling; I believe they perfectly illustrate the evil that can come from good intentions.


And I understand where you're coming from on a personal level. If I had not been indoctrinated, I might have spent more time developing real relationships instead of wasting it on an imaginary one. I would have spent more time studying and taken more responsibility for my success, rather than procrastinate by worshiping, and then later praying for a good grade out of desperation. Christian doctrines robbed me of a quarter of my life, but now I'm free.

[Divine Insight]

I believe it's impossible to like Jesus and be a Christian simultaneously!

I agree.

Christianity is the Antichrist they're waiting for.

Agreed again.

We're not supposed to post one-liners around here, so let me elaborate and say that I couldn't agree with you more. I often point out the fact that Christianity is about as anti-Jesus as a religion can be.

Back to your OP:

I'm not sure if there's much hope for converting people in the throws of religion, but perhaps there could be campaigns to help guide people away from that route?

Actually the very best way to help guide people away from these jealous-god religions is probably to encourage the growth of more intelligent and loving religion. In "real life" (i.e. as opposed to posting on the Internet) I almost never argue against Christianity, but instead I support, teach, and encourage more positive spiritual philosophies and traditions.

I focus mainly on supporting, encouraging, and teaching Eclectic Solitary Wicca to those who are interested. I also support Taoism, Buddhism, and ecology. I don't necessarily encourage atheism, but I don't find fault with atheists either.

In real life (in-person) I think supporting positive things produces better results than arguing against negative things. But pointing out the negativity and absurdity of things like Christianity on a forum like this is probably a very healthy and productive thing to do too actually. Just don't take it back over into your real life. It isn't worth it.

[ElCodeMonkey]

[Replying to post 6 by Darias]

Wow... IHOP is actually the place I went with my wife to become missionaries... That is terrible. I'm glad I didn't tithe much to them directly! I generally chose to give tithe funds to random people as I saw fit so as not to support a building and staff.

That video is exactly what I'm talking about though. But what do we do about it? I would love to start "tithing" money to good causes but I can never find one. I personally don't want to donate to a non-profit whose members make more money than me . And while I'm not against organizations that treat symptoms of evils, I would personally rather give to organizations that tackle the evils themselves. I generally believe the solution is in education and in uplifting humaneness/ethics but good luck sporting that one. I've wanted to create a "church" without religion but I cannot for the life of me think of how to actually sell it. "Hey, wanna get together with me this weekend and talk about how we can improve ourselves and be better people?" "Uhhh... right... isn't there a prayer or something we can say instead? Maybe sing a little song?"

I know for me, I'm better able to be a better person when I'm around people who also wish to be better people. It's hard to find such people in non-Christian though as they generally abhor the idea of right and wrong. Despite right and wrong, there is still a good and bad. Negative thoughts lead to a terrible life. Good thoughts generally bring a happy life. Being conscious of how to bring joy to others often has a Karma-like effect of bringing joy to yourself. There are effective ways and damaging ways to raise children etc, etc.

[ElCodeMonkey]

Actually the very best way to help guide people away from these jealous-god religions is probably to encourage the growth of more intelligent and loving religion. In "real life" (i.e. as opposed to posting on the Internet) I almost never argue against Christianity, but instead I support, teach, and encourage more positive spiritual philosophies and traditions.

I focus mainly on supporting, encouraging, and teaching Eclectic Solitary Wicca to those who are interested. I also support Taoism, Buddhism, and ecology. I don't necessarily encourage atheism, but I don't find fault with atheists either.

In real life (in-person) I think supporting positive things produces better results than arguing against negative things. But pointing out the negativity and absurdity of things like Christianity on a forum like this is probably a very healthy and productive thing to do too actually. Just don't take it back over into your real life. It isn't worth it.

I will personally call myself Agnostic as I won't claim 100% certainty about anything, but I'm 99.99999% Atheist simply in that I don't believe there is a God or anything supernatural. Even if an "angel" came to me directly, I would likely consider it a being that follows natural laws that I simply do not understand. Beyond that, I think it's harmful to have beliefs in supernatural concepts as it will direct people toward ways of thinking that will ultimately lead away from reality. Reality is hard enough to understand without supernatural beliefs getting in the way.

As for the rest of what you've said, I couldn't agree more. Having arguments posted online is good for people doing Google searches for truth and even the flame-wars can be good to some extent because it shows the maturity of the people on different sides of the arguments. It's difficult to find a mature person arguing irrationality . I definitely leave it alone in real life though. My family and my wife's family are extremely Christian (go figure seeing as that's how we started). I'm not sure if they know that we no longer believe. We simply don't talk about it and we still hold hands for their ritual praying before meals just to honor them. But yeah, if there's a way to uplift what is good rather than bash what is bad, that is certainly the way to go!

[Divine Insight]

I will personally call myself Agnostic as I won't claim 100% certainty about anything, but I'm 99.99999% Atheist simply in that I don't believe there is a God or anything supernatural. Even if an "angel" came to me directly, I would likely consider it a being that follows natural laws that I simply do not understand. Beyond that, I think it's harmful to have beliefs in supernatural concepts as it will direct people toward ways of thinking that will ultimately lead away from reality. Reality is hard enough to understand without supernatural beliefs getting in the way.

Well, if you're actually looking for a God that is a supreme being who is "other" than you, then I don't blame you for being 99.99999% Atheist. After all, even if you found such a God then what would that make YOU?

You would then need to be something "other" than this God! Holy mackerel, this can get really complicated.

However, if you think about mystical religions that actually suggest that you are this mystical being things become totally different.

For example, consider the following?

What is the universe made of insofar as we know? Well, it's made of matter and energy, which Albert Einstein showed us are really just two different manifestations of the same stuff.

For the most part we think of matter in terms of atoms, and energy in terms of forces, with the electromagnetism being one of the most important forces for us especially in terms of brain activity, etc.

So what are we? Well, clearly we are this stuff called matter or energy. We are a collection of atoms and electromagnetic fields that are fluctuating.

Ok, so here's some questions for you:

1. Can matter or energy have an experience?

2. Can atoms or electromagnetic fields have an experience?

3. Are you having an experience?

I'm going to assume that you answered no to the first two questions and yes to the third question. (if this is an incorrect assumption on my part please advise and I'll reconsider your position) In the meantime I'm going to move forward based on the assumption that you gave these answers.

My next question is this:

What changed between the first two questions and the third question?

What exactly is it that is having an experience if not the stuff you are made of?

For me, personally this is what points to something far more mysterious going on.

Now this isn't going to cause me to run out and start worshiping Zeus, or any other fabled personified Gods. After all, these questions aren't even about any separate personified Gods. These questions are directly about me and my reality.

However, there are mystical and spiritual philosophies that point in this direction. These are the Eastern Mystical philosophies. And they say in Sanskrit, "Tat T'vam Asi" meaning "You are That".

Your are the mystical conscious awareness of all that exists (i.e. matter and energy which are one in the same stuff). You are that. "Tat T'vam Asi".

And for me, this is how spirituality becomes 'real'.

To be perfectly honest with you I can't even imagine a universe that is not mystical or spiritual for this very reason. In fact, if I could imagine it what would I be that is imagining that? Just the atoms and electromagnetic fields?

But that would mean that atoms and electromagnetic fields can have an experience!

And guess what? That brings me full-circle because I am that. "Tat T'vam Asi".

It appears to me that the Eastern Mystics have it nailed.

How could I ever become an atheist knowing that, I am that I am?