Would an Omnipotent being have a Need/Want to do ANYTHING?

[nayrbsnilloc]

[Replying to post 120 by ttruscott]

Let's follow this through logically:
You say that Acts 15:18 'Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.' shows that God only knows that which he created. To you, this means that our evil/mistakes were of our creation and not his, so it removes his responsibility.

Unfortunately for that train of thought there is Colossians 1:16 -
"For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him "
So This verse in colossians says that everything is his creation. And Acts says that he knows ALL of his creation. This seems to line up with 1 John 3:20 and its explicit statement that God is omniscient:
"If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything."

The Bible claims god's omniscience, and nowhere does it mention a form of limited omniscience.
I would suggest you stop bringing Plato into this, he doesn't really belong in this discussion.



On a different point though, your mention of a theological necessity of free will is telling. For your theology to work, it is necessary that God did not create evil. However, this is a theological necessity, not a logical necessity. Twisting/forgoing logic to satisfy theology is not acceptable, it defeats the entire purpose of theology in the first place.

It is not quite as obvious as you think, nor do I even know of these pre-existence sheol "hints" you allude to. Please explain further.

[agnosticatheist]

GOD did not necessarily create from a need and I doubt if you can prove every desire or motivating impulse can only arise from a need but I contend such motivation may arise from an understanding of the consequences to the created beings and creation was for us, that is, our benefit and not for HIM.

Peace, Ted

I think the motivation for creating a universe in the first place is ultimately irrelevant.

Who cares if he created because of a need?

What matters is that he did, and humans and animals have suffered for at least 3,000 years, perhaps longer.

You mentioned that creation was for our benefit. How is that exactly? Was the Holocaust for our benefit? Torture? Poverty?

If you contend that all that is a result of our free will, then fair enough, but then God should not have created the universe in the first place if he knew all this would happen. That seems to lead to the conclusion that this isn't about us, it's about God and God getting what God wants, consequences (human and animal suffering) be damned.

You can argue all you want about me not being able to see the big picture, and that maybe we will understand on the other side, and that all this really was for our benefit.

If you don't ever create humans in the first place, there's no need or interest in there being anything for their benefit.

Speaking for myself, if I had any choice in the matter, I never would have existed, ever.

I would gladly and willingly sacrifice my own existence to prevent any type of suffering from happening anywhere.

If God is so good, and so benevolent, and so wise, and so merciful, why did he create a universe in the first place? Why did he allow it to go on trucking for at least 3,000 years? Why not shut this crapshow down after it became obvious at numerous places throughout human history that this is a disaster?

According to the book of Revelation, God is going to end this madness at some point; why not end it sooner rather than later? What is he waiting on? Why not end it in the year 20? the year 1000? the year 1920? 2000? 2009?

Is he trying to reach a target number of souls in Heaven? If so, how many souls in Heaven is enough for God to step in and end this madness?

[Blastcat]

Dear Master Spade,

You are in error concerning your assumptions about me not being as perfect as God.

If you read the Holy Bible, you will see that the demigod Jesus, the Son of the Almighty God, teaches that we can indeed be as perfect as God.

So we now have Divine Insight probably claiming to be perfect.. please sir, then, tell us the cure for cancer.. No?

Not going to share your perfect knowledge with the rest of us?

Allow me to share with you an excerpt form this Holy Book. These words, although written by some yo-yo named Matthew, are supposedly a verbatim trustworthy quote from the demigod Jesus himself who was the Son of God.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

So you are perfect. Great.. share with us your perfect knowledge.

The question is.. why won't you share perfectly your perfect knowledge?... What is your perfect reason?

Now I realize that a belief in this Holy Book requires faith, but if you allow for faith then consider the following:

Jesus, the perfect Son of the perfect almighty Father God is telling us, according to the yo-yo named Matthew, that we can indeed be as perfect of God if we simply chose to be.

You just CHOSE to be perfect.. and some people don't chose to be perfect.. tell us mr. perfect, what does it MEAN to be perfect?

Do you know everything perfectly?

What about cancer.. what about ALS.. what about sudden infant mortality.. what about AIDS what about the economy what about ALL THE PEOPLE WHO ARE SUFFERING RIGHT NOW?

What's your perfect answer to all the imperfections in nature?

Surely Jesus, being a perfect demigod himself would not be pulling our leg with fibs.

Surely, a story about a perfect god would have tall tales.. but if you ARE perfect. show us some perfection. Make it PERTINENT to reality.. make your perfection MEANINGFUL to the real world because the real world REALLY needs a big dose of your perfection...

How about you get a few NOBEL prizes first to convince us all about your perfection?
How about you stun the MATHEMATICIANS.. how about you stun ANYONE about ANYTHING?

Does your perfection have any consequence at all in the REAL world where the rest of us live?

How about global weather change.. how about the oil crisis?.. how about pollution.. how about LETS GET RID OF ALL THE HOSPITALS.. you can do it.. you're so perfect.

How about we get rid of SUFFERING of every kind?

Therefore all we need to do is simply choose to be perfect like our Father which is in heaven and it shall be so.

BE perfect?... not DO anything perfectly?

The world can go to HELL for all you care as long as you feel perfect? DO something with your perfection.. don't just let CHILDREN die.. REALLY?

YOU ARE PERFECT and will allow children to suffer?

I am told by all clergy and priests that the words in this Holy Book should be believed as a matter of pure faith.

Well, since you were TOLD what to think, you better think it.

Therefore I believe that the yo-yo Matthew has correctly quoted the perfect demigod Jesus and that it is then possible for me to be perfect like my Father which is in heaven.

Your god is perfect, the book is perfect, you are perfect.. wonderful..

Thus I accept the words of the demigod Jesus, and I choose to be perfect like God.

You are so perfect...

Therefore I am perfect like God.

You are as PERFECT as a god who lets ONE Child suffer.

I realize that you may find this difficult to understand or believe. But that's a totally irrelevant and moot point.

It might be difficult to understand and believe that you are NOT SO PERFECT. but that's totally irrelevant and moot point. I will take you as a HUMAN.. so .. if you want me not to laugh at your ridiculous claim of perfection.. PROVE somehow that you are.

And a LOT of kids are now dying... so HURRY.

My faith has made me perfect.

I see NO evidence of your perfection.

And faith is what the demigod Jesus and the Yahweh Father God are all about according to the priests, clergy and the hypocritical scribes (as Jesus points out).

hmm you are being ironic.. my bad.. i fell for it.. hard to tell a POSER from a true believer.. don't do that.. I'll report you for it.

Therefore I am perfect. By faith.

This may not have anything to do with reality, but that's a trivial aside. The religion is a faith-based religion, not a reality-based religion.

Therefore I am perfect like my Father in heaven is perfect.

ok. nice long joke i took seriously.. jokes on ME ha ha... don't do that again.