Christian marriage is man and woman/husband and wife.

[99percentatheism]

There is no secular or theological challenge to be made that a "Christian marriage" isn't immutably a man and woman/husband and wife. Therefore, it should be a criminal act under current hate crimes laws, to accuse a Christian of hate, bigotry, or irrational . . ., if they assert the immutability of the structure of marriage as man and woman/husband and wife.

As Jesus proclaimed it in the Gospels and the writings reaffirm and define it so.

Why would anyone, religious or secularist, NOT support and affirm Christians adhering to the consistent and immutable Biblical teaching that a marriage is a man/husband and woman/wife?

[KCKID]

[Replying to post 1187 by 99percentatheism]

Prove what??????????

My favorite way to argue this is to ask, "When did you 'decide' to be heterosexual?"

I have asked that on many forums, the homobash crew evade like a gazelle.

The Homobash Crew is nothing compared to the Christian Attack Squad. The Homobash Crew is a propaganda tactic. A label of neologism by the anti-Christian fanatic. Christians have to watch what they do and say or else they get sued and screwed by the forces arrayed against them.

Now when does a person decide to live like a Christian?

That is the real question for this thread.

For a Christian, marriage is man and woman/husband and wife. And Homosexual Culture, gay and lesbian and most certainly Bi-Sexual, are choices made that are outside the Christian faith.

Simple.

So when did you CHOOSE to be heterosexual?

When my Mother and Father and other morally sound role models taught me right from wrong.

Thanks for asking.

And how do you go about now denying your homosexual attractions?

You don't seem to be able to comprehend how weak a demand that is.

Try answering ALL my positions point for point or admit that you have no other response to the truth of biblically sound positions other than subterfuge and pathetic jabs.

There are plenty of other threads for you to look for Christians to bash. I am not one that is afraid of you or your kind at all.

Admit that you have absolutely no Biblical truth to demand that we celebrate homosexuality and move on.

This is simply evasion.

How do you now control your homosexual attractions? Was the question, please answer it.

It's all "Bible" as far as 99percent is concerned to the very exclusion of the human analytic mind. Except when it comes to divorce and remarriage, that is. He avoids that biblical 'no-no' because its far too common (and accepted by the majority of Christians) for 99percent to tackle. Better to play it safe and stick to condemning the far fewer gay population.

It's unlikely that you'll get a straight answer from 99percent so you may as well give up.

There is a reason you implement Ad Hom attack incesantly. You simply have no other justification for celebrating and encouraging homosexuality based on any scripture or Christian reality. You are left with the frustration that many, many, many Christians will not become like the world and its ways as you demand. Why this frustrates you so intenslely is for another place to be debated. I'd get banned here if I use the perspective I would have to as a Christian that views the Bible as important to defining what is and what isn't truth.

But, it's just the "Jesus" part of the Bible that we're concerned about, isn't it? And, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that Jesus never touched on this matter at all. So, why is it such a burning issue for you when it clearly was not a burning issue for Him ...?

[Danmark]

To rise to the level of criminality the behavior has to be more than true speech; it must include violence or the threat of violence. And the threat has to be more than mere words to be a crime. The threat must be regarding an imminent physical, violent attack that the listener reasonably believes will actually be carried out.

Not even the oft-used single and referenced congregation that pickets about homosexuals asks for physical violence to be meted out to homosexuals and their legions of supporters this side of Judgement Day.

It is for this reason that groups like the Nazis are allowed to spew their hateful filth publicly, as long as they don't transgress the line regarding actual threats of physical harm that fit the definition above.

Do you know that "Nazi" stands for National Socialst?

They were once a wonderful patriotic movement for the rose from a minority group to a totalitarian rulership. And anyone that refused to follow the belief system of "Nazi's" were labeled and categorized and eventually eliminated from the new society. It was even attempted to be clothed in Christian garb until the trap was srung on the duped populace.

I mention it here because 99% as previously revealed he either does not understand this distinction, or wants to alter the 1st Amendment so he can pass a law that could imprison for mere speech.

That statement is idiocy or worse. When you look at everything I have written here, I don't care the slightest what homosexuals and their legion of supporters do with each other or what they believe in. And I have never once said that homosexuals can't attend an orthodox Church. My positions are based in protecting the Christian position that that homosexuality and of course same gender marriage are simply antithetical to Christian truth.

[this post was confusing as to who was being quoted. Since I am not a master of BBCode, I've tried to put what I wrote in dark red]

Perhaps I was not clear. The only point of that paragraph was to point out what you wrote in the OP: There is no secular or theological challenge to be made that a "Christian marriage" isn't immutably a man and woman/husband and wife. Therefore, it should be a criminal act under current hate crimes laws, to accuse a Christian of hate, bigotry, or irrational....
I don't believe I claimed you wrote they couldn't attend. I made reference to your opinion they should not be allowed to be MEMBERS of your church if they believed and acted on their belief that their homosexuality was not condemned by God.

My central point is that you have suggested it should be a "hate crime' to accuse a Christian of 'hate.' This is mere speech and cannot be a crime as I have carefully pointed out. The 1st Amendment would have to be repealed in part to allow the passage of a 'hate' crime for mere words.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"
[emphasis mine]

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 1219 by Danmark]

I'll be back later on today to answer your post with your quotes.

Thank you. I hope you will also answer my questions in post 1220.

I consider the crux of the issue to rest upon whether one can choose which sex he is attracted to. If people can choose to be attracted to members of the same sex, than I can understand why such a choice can be interpreted by some as 'evil.'

But if they have no choice, if their attraction to one gender or the other is as natural as the color of their skin, I have great difficulty with the idea of making a moral judgment about their gender assignment.

[99percentatheism]

[Replying to post 1187 by 99percentatheism]

Prove what??????????

I have asked that on many forums, the homobash crew evade like a gazelle.

The Homobash Crew is nothing compared to the Christian Attack Squad. The Homobash Crew is a propaganda tactic. A label of neologism by the anti-Christian fanatic. Christians have to watch what they do and say or else they get sued and screwed by the forces arrayed against them.

Now when does a person decide to live like a Christian?

That is the real question for this thread.

For a Christian, marriage is man and woman/husband and wife. And Homosexual Culture, gay and lesbian and most certainly Bi-Sexual, are choices made that are outside the Christian faith.

Simple.

So when did you CHOOSE to be heterosexual?

When my Mother and Father and other morally sound role models taught me right from wrong.

Thanks for asking.

And how do you go about now denying your homosexual attractions?

You don't seem to be able to comprehend how weak a demand that is.

Try answering ALL my positions point for point or admit that you have no other response to the truth of biblically sound positions other than subterfuge and pathetic jabs.

There are plenty of other threads for you to look for Christians to bash. I am not one that is afraid of you or your kind at all.

Admit that you have absolutely no Biblical truth to demand that we celebrate homosexuality and move on.

This is simply evasion.

How do you now control your homosexual attractions? Was the question, please answer it.

It's all "Bible" as far as 99percent is concerned to the very exclusion of the human analytic mind. Except when it comes to divorce and remarriage, that is. He avoids that biblical 'no-no' because its far too common (and accepted by the majority of Christians) for 99percent to tackle. Better to play it safe and stick to condemning the far fewer gay population.

It's unlikely that you'll get a straight answer from 99percent so you may as well give up.

There is a reason you implement Ad Hom attack incesantly. You simply have no other justification for celebrating and encouraging homosexuality based on any scripture or Christian reality. You are left with the frustration that many, many, many Christians will not become like the world and its ways as you demand. Why this frustrates you so intenslely is for another place to be debated. I'd get banned here if I use the perspective I would have to as a Christian that views the Bible as important to defining what is and what isn't truth.

But, it's just the "Jesus" part of the Bible that we're concerned about, isn't it? And, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that Jesus never touched on this matter at all. So, why is it such a burning issue for you when it clearly was not a burning issue for Him ...?

Jesus never mentioned "open marriages" either. He never mentioned porn usage, he never mentioned flashing . . . yada, yada, yada. He did though assert that marriage was man and woman/husband and wife. And never redefined it.

But he did mention being persectued and hated for being His follower. Even if you are a Christian baker in a Colorado town:

The American Family Association's Bryan Fischer is mincing few words in his defense of Jack Phillips, the Colorado baker who was recently ordered by a judge to provide wedding cakes for same-sex couples or risk facing fines.

Fischer, whose opposition to lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) rights is well-established, said Phillips, who owns Denver's Masterpiece Cakeshop, was a victim of what he described as "the Secular Inquisition" on an installment of his "Focal Point" Radio Show, Right Wing Watch first reported.

"This is something you think happens in Cuba; this is something that happens in the Soviet Union ... where people get sent to jail or get sent to prison for exercising their religious liberty," Fischer notes. "This is like the Spanish Inquisition. This is the Secular Inquisition."

Despite last week's court order, Phillips said yesterday he'd rather go to jail than bake a wedding cake for a same-sex couple.

"I don't plan on giving up my religious beliefs," he told Fox News. "I don't feel that I should participate in their wedding, and when I do a cake, I feel like I'm participating in the ceremony or the event or the celebration that the cake is for."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/1 ... 27219.html#

[99percentatheism]

Danmark

You just view 'them' as people you won't let into your church. Many Christian churches disagree with you and openly welcome anyone who wants to follow the example of love and forgiveness that Christ taught. Inherent in your posts [which are almost exclusively on the issue of homosexuality] is the notion that YOUR interpretation of Christianity is THE interpretation. Most Christians I have known disagree with you, as do many Christian denominations. Who appointed [or is it 'annointed'] you to speak for Christ?

Why would I have to answer an atheist about any "authority" based on scriptural truth?

The irony of you even making the demand is irony to the extreme.

If you would take the time to notice, it is not my positions that are demanding any authority other than to be able to understand how sentences make sense in English.

Who appointed you my authority to demand anything of me? You and your side can't find one supportive word or group of words running together anywhere in the bible that supports the celebration of homosexuality.

Who appointed gay activists the new editors of Christian writ?

Your response has almost nothing to do with what I wrote.

I did not 'demand' you do anything.

Bunk. You are just evading the reality that you demand that I and every other Bible-affirming Christian celebrate homosexuals and homosexuality. That we become secular in our beliefs and not Christian in actions, and thought as did the all of the "original" Christians. Otherwise you would agree perfectly that I and every other "Evangelical" Christian, aren't doing anything bad or wrong to people that enjoy homosexual sex, by asking that they repent of this behavior "if" they claim to be a Christiann "too."

I am not an 'atheist.' I am a non theist. Inherent in what you write is the assumption that a non Christian cannot read and understand what the Bible says.

Whatever. I've read that squirming denial many times. You exist in the anti-Christian voewpoint do you not? You don't seem to agree with anything in the Bible about marriage and demand that I see things the way a "non-theist" sees things. In fact demand it. That's persecution towards a Christian in no uncertain terms, when we are forced to live like the godless.

Many Christians have a very poor understanding of scripture.

Without doubt. I have most effectively defined that as coming from liberal and progressive activism. More emotionalism driven than facts.

Many atheists are Biblical scholars or have read and studied the Bible for decades as Christians before coming to the conclusion it is not the inspired word of god.

You are defining an anti-Christ. I was once a deicated atheist. Although I saw no fun in attacking Christians as the new models seem to enjoy.

That does not mean they don't understand the Bible. In fact it may mean they understand it very, very well.

I disagree with that 100%. I haven't met an atheist once that understood the Bible. Not even once. And I have debated atehists even on radio. I have spoken with a famous "new atheist" who agreed with that. He has though passed away.

Also, please show me where I wrote that either you or the Bible should "celebrate" homosexuality.

Don't evade reality please. Another experience I have with dedicated atheists is that they demand the game be played exclusively by their rules. Or "non-theist" if you prefer. How haughty really. Of course.

I simply pointed out that your position on homosexuality is not the only Christian perspective.

Then you have proven beyond doubt my opinion of atheists and "non-theists" that they do not understand the Bible at all. Any time spent reading the Bible would show an impossibility of homosexualizing marriage in a Hebrew OR Christian definition.

You have been provided with a long list of Christian churches who accept homosexuals in their fellowship and church membership.

Read Jude and get back to me. Heresy and heretics are a common occurence in congregations. It's no surprise that the 21st century has these kinds of occurences. Notice that these places and groups have incredible support from people like you? Non-theists, atheists and the general run-of-the-mill secularist?

From the root comes the fruit.

It's a bible thing. You have to understand the Bible to realize that.

I freely admit that I am not aware of a single passage in the Bible that explicitly states that Christians should 'celebrate' homosexuality. But I, and many of your Christian brethren see that the core of Christianity is love, forgiveness . . .,

"Forgiveness?" Forgiveness?????

Excuse me? Forgiveness? Forgiveness for what? Your theology is based on how a person feels. If there is consent than there is nothing to repent of and therefore be "forgiven." Secularized theology 101.

. . . acceptance of others, and not blaming people or holding them accountable as 'sinners' for qualities they did not choose, but were born with.

What?????

For qualities they did not choose?????

C'mon man. Read what you wrote. That's nonsense or worse.

I'm going to allow you to show me how well you know the Bible as a "non-theist." But from where I sit, it looks like I have a very, very, long wait until you figure out the absurdity of your theology there.

I questioned why the issue of homosexuality seems to be the ONLY issue you are concerned with.

Hello? Reality maybe? This is one of the most malevolent movements against the Church that currently exists. Other than Islam and the new atheism . . ., what else is really attacking Christians?

And the other threads here are mostly goofy. Standard atheist and "non-theist" insults that are a waste of time to be involved in. The LGBT and "Q" issue is threatening my brothers and sisters in Christ for real. The Gospel is now labeled hate speech and supreme court judges have demanded that we submit to gay rule over us anytime we step foot outside our homes and Churches. Watching Christians be ghettoized and worse is quite alarming. Though expected of course, it is still alarming. I am called to defend the faith. Not make you and your secularist pals feel warm and fuzzy in your opposition to the faith. Jesus and the Apostles were executed by secularists. Pagan secularists. Of course.

Looking back at the last 6 months of posts in 'Christianity and Apologetics' I note you have started 3 topics. All 3 are about homosexuality. Your last 30 or so posts have been exclusively about homosexuality. I 'demand' nothing. I simply ask why you have this particular focus on this single issue.

Reality is important to me. Malevolence towards The Church is something that every Christian should address. I enjoy the watchers cruising around watching me because all of my positions are honest and sound. I have nothing to fear from Christ for being honest. And the opinions of heretics towards me is a blessing.

This is an important question, particularly when you must note that Jesus had nothing to say about homosexuality.

That's a blatant misrepresentation of truth. Jesus dictated that marriage is man and woman/husband and wife. And he did that referencing God's pronouncement documented in the Tanakh. In theological and historical context there is no way to qualify homosexual pairings as marriage in any honest way.

As Ann Naffziger wrote:
If you were to read all four gospels thoroughly in search of Jesus’ teachings on homosexuality it would be a futile endeavor.

If you are to homosexualize marriage from the Gospels, Ann or anyone else has to invent a new reaity and a New Gospel. One based on secular and pagan beleifs and not Biblical.

To quote some writer:

"If you were to read all four gospels thoroughly in search of Jesus’ teachings on homosexuality it would be a futile endeavor."

Not only would you come to the end of the gospels without finding anything attributed to Jesus on the subject, you wouldn’t even find a single reference to the issue in any context.

Not one word "affirming" the LGBT community. Not one single word. But you do find millions in the world and its ways.

In fact, there are only a handful of references to homosexuality in the entire Bible, but they are found in the Old Testament and Paul’s writings. (To put it in perspective, while there are only seven references to homosexuality, there are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of references to economic justice and the laws governing the accumulation and distribution of wealth.)
http://bustedhalo.com/questionbox/what- ... osexuality

Lying is also when you purposely deceive someone with a perspective that is not based in truth.

Ann is simple another person that doesn't know anything about the Bible. Every description of marriage and man and wife in the New Testament is immutably man and woman/husband and wife. Her attempts to LGBT-ize the Bible are futility defined.

But I do love her.

As Jesus told me to love any enemy.

[Joab]

[Replying to post 1187 by 99percentatheism]

Prove what??????????

My favorite way to argue this is to ask, "When did you 'decide' to be heterosexual?"

I have asked that on many forums, the homobash crew evade like a gazelle.

The Homobash Crew is nothing compared to the Christian Attack Squad. The Homobash Crew is a propaganda tactic. A label of neologism by the anti-Christian fanatic. Christians have to watch what they do and say or else they get sued and screwed by the forces arrayed against them.

Now when does a person decide to live like a Christian?

That is the real question for this thread.

For a Christian, marriage is man and woman/husband and wife. And Homosexual Culture, gay and lesbian and most certainly Bi-Sexual, are choices made that are outside the Christian faith.

Simple.

So when did you CHOOSE to be heterosexual?

When my Mother and Father and other morally sound role models taught me right from wrong.

Thanks for asking.

And how do you go about now denying your homosexual attractions?

You don't seem to be able to comprehend how weak a demand that is.

Try answering ALL my positions point for point or admit that you have no other response to the truth of biblically sound positions other than subterfuge and pathetic jabs.

There are plenty of other threads for you to look for Christians to bash. I am not one that is afraid of you or your kind at all.

Admit that you have absolutely no Biblical truth to demand that we celebrate homosexuality and move on.

This is simply evasion.

How do you now control your homosexual attractions? Was the question, please answer it.

"Now control?" How pathetically propagandist. How do you control not raping dogs and cats? Are you denying that you have the desire to rape dogs and cats? Are you in denial? When did you stop hating Bible affirming Christians that refuse to live as a pagan or an atheist? Please answer my questions.

Homosexuality is an abomination. I do not have a reprobate mind and God has not given me over to one. In simple terms, I do what is right and I stay away from depravity and those people that not only do these kinds of things but approve of thise that do. Pretty simple math.

And of course fisrt written to Roman (and Greek) Christians. Some things never change.

Do you also feel the urge to rape dogs and cats. Or are you denying that you have ever had homosexual attractions?

Are you NOW claiming that you never chose to be heterosexual?

Why do you continually evade answering this question?

[KCKID]

But, it's just the "Jesus" part of the Bible that we're concerned about, isn't it? And, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that Jesus never touched on this matter at all. So, why is it such a burning issue for you when it clearly was not a burning issue for Him ...?

Jesus never mentioned "open marriages" either. He never mentioned porn usage, he never mentioned flashing . . . yada, yada, yada. He did though assert that marriage was man and woman/husband and wife. And never redefined it.

But he did mention being persectued and hated for being His follower. Even if you are a Christian baker in a Colorado town:

The American Family Association's Bryan Fischer is mincing few words in his defense of Jack Phillips, the Colorado baker who was recently ordered by a judge to provide wedding cakes for same-sex couples or risk facing fines.

Fischer, whose opposition to lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) rights is well-established, said Phillips, who owns Denver's Masterpiece Cakeshop, was a victim of what he described as "the Secular Inquisition" on an installment of his "Focal Point" Radio Show, Right Wing Watch first reported.

"This is something you think happens in Cuba; this is something that happens in the Soviet Union ... where people get sent to jail or get sent to prison for exercising their religious liberty," Fischer notes. "This is like the Spanish Inquisition. This is the Secular Inquisition."

Despite last week's court order, Phillips said yesterday he'd rather go to jail than bake a wedding cake for a same-sex couple.

"I don't plan on giving up my religious beliefs," he told Fox News. "I don't feel that I should participate in their wedding, and when I do a cake, I feel like I'm participating in the ceremony or the event or the celebration that the cake is for."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/1 ... 27219.html#

What a lot of fanatical nonsense by this baker. He won't bake a wedding cake because his 'belief' forbids this!! Such stupid 'religiosity' should be questioned even by the most devout Christians. It's all about Bible consistency, folks. It's stories such as this that give Christianity a bad name. You should know better than to present such crud, 99percent, in an attempt to bolster your position. If anything, stories such as this sorely weakens it.

What "I" would ask this baker is, "Do you trade on Saturday?" No doubt his reply would be along the lines, "Yes, of course I trade on Saturday." I would then say to this supposed staunch Bible-believing baker, "But, isn't working on God's 7th-day Creation Sabbath (Saturday) a glaring violation of the 4th-commandment of the Big Ten that clearly forbids this?" I would be most interested to hear his response. You see, "I", too, know my Bible.

[Danmark]

Bunk. You are just evading the reality that you demand that I and every other Bible-affirming Christian celebrate homosexuals and homosexuality. That we become secular in our beliefs and not Christian in actions, and thought as did the all of the "original" Christians. Otherwise you would agree perfectly that I and every other "Evangelical" Christian, aren't doing anything bad or wrong to people that enjoy homosexual sex, by asking that they repent of this behavior "if" they claim to be a Christiann "too."

You have made an incorrect statement about what I've written. I will make a demand however. I demand you either retract it and apologize to me, or show the quote where I "demanded" that you "celebrate homosexuals and homosexuality." Please quote where I "demanded" you become secular. I really have no idea how you can make this stuff up. I have stated you are wrong and your attitude toward homosexuality is unChristian in my opinion, and that other Christians disagree with you. But I have not demanded you change your beliefs. No one can make such a demand. You're perfectly free to continue to discriminate agains homosexuals and claim they are depraved. You can be as wrong as you want. You are free to be wrong. But you are not free to make things up and claim I said them.
Quote me or apologize for your misrepresentations.

[Danmark]

Whatever. I've read that squirming denial many times. You exist in the anti-Christian voewpoint do you not? You don't seem to agree with anything in the Bible about marriage and demand that I see things the way a "non-theist" sees things. In fact demand it. That's persecution towards a Christian in no uncertain terms, when we are forced to live like the godless.

Now you are simply making a personal attack with your reference to "squirming denial." I am a non theist. I prefer that term to "atheist." It may make no difference to you, but it does to me. I'm not anti-Christian, I simply don't believe in orthodox theism. "Atheist" for some, and apparently you are one, means 'Anti Christian.' I'm not "anti" Christian any more than I am "anti" golf because I don't play golf. I don't consider myself "anti astrology." I simply don't believe in it. I think neither astrology or Christianity are important enough to cause me to define myself as 'anti.' I don't go around attacking Christians. I just point out where and when I don't believe their beliefs are justified.

Your That's persecution towards a Christian in no uncertain terms, when we are forced to live like the godless. is simply a false statement. It is not 'persecution' of a Christian to simply disagree with him. I am not 'forcing you to live like godless." How could I? How could anyone "force you to live like the godless?"

Please tell me how I can "force" you to "live like the godless." Show me how I have done that, or retract you statement.

[Danmark]

Danmark

This is an important question, particularly when you must note that Jesus had nothing to say about homosexuality.

That's a blatant misrepresentation of truth. Jesus dictated that marriage is man and woman/husband and wife. And he did that referencing God's pronouncement documented in the Tanakh. In theological and historical context there is no way to qualify homosexual pairings as marriage in any honest way.

Now you stoop to accusing me of lying. Please give me the verse where JESUS said anything about homosexuality or retract your accusation. Jesus said men should not divorce their wives. He did not define marriage in that response to the Pharisees' question on divorce. Please retract your accusation that I made "a blatant misrepresentation of truth" or cite the verse where Jesus directly defines marriage as between one male and one female.

Can you at least admit that there are valid Christian interpretations of the Bible that you disagree with, or come right out and say it, that YOUR own personal interpretation of scripture is the ONLY reasonable or valid interpretation of scripture.