A place for good non-believers

[lostguest]

Apologists often say that God doesn't send non-believers to hell, they send themselves by not wanting to be with God. But if that is the case then non-believers don't want to go to hell either and yet they supposedly end up there anyway. So, why wouldn't God create a place for people who are otherwise just as good as believers but whose only "sin" was not believing or accepting God? Why would God create only two options in which one of them "punishes" equally people who do really evil things and people who may actually be better human beings than many Christians but simply do not believe in God.
To me it's the equivalent of someone inviting people to his birthday party and whoever decides to come will have lots of fun, food and everything else but whoever refuses the invitation gets sent to a North Korean prison for life.

[charles_hamm]

Apologists often say that God doesn't send non-believers to hell, they send themselves by not wanting to be with God. But if that is the case then non-believers don't want to go to hell either and yet they supposedly end up there anyway. So, why wouldn't God create a place for people who are otherwise just as good as believers but whose only "sin" was not believing or accepting God? Why would God create only two options in which one of them "punishes" equally people who do really evil things and people who may actually be better human beings than many Christians but simply do not believe in God.
To me it's the equivalent of someone inviting people to his birthday party and whoever decides to come will have lots of fun, food and everything else but whoever refuses the invitation gets sent to a North Korean prison for life.

I think you are missing the concept of "good" here. You are comparing non believers to believers to determine good. That can't be done since believers must first admit we are sinners. That already sets the bar lower for non believers because they would be using a flawed standard. The standard believers are told to use is Jesus, which all believers admit they fall well short of. The only way a believer can get into Heaven is by accepting Jesus as our saviour since it's not possible to earn our way in. Their sin prevents them from accepting Jesus so they would always fall short of the standard that God uses to determine good and evil. Again you miss the point of what evil things are. Just because you don't consider something evil, God may. The standard once again is Jesus. Don't compare yourself to me or any other believer because we are not the standard to try to achieve.

I think your comparison is not very accurate. It doesn't require belief or faith to goto a birthday party and since there is nothing sacrificed by going everyone would logically go. You also make the punishment disproportionate to the offense. You would have to define the standard to even start a comparison.

[YahDough]

Apologists often say that God doesn't send non-believers to hell, they send themselves by not wanting to be with God. But if that is the case then non-believers don't want to go to hell either and yet they supposedly end up there anyway. So, why wouldn't God create a place for people who are otherwise just as good as believers but whose only "sin" was not believing or accepting God? Why would God create only two options in which one of them "punishes" equally people who do really evil things and people who may actually be better human beings than many Christians but simply do not believe in God.
To me it's the equivalent of someone inviting people to his birthday party and whoever decides to come will have lots of fun, food and everything else but whoever refuses the invitation gets sent to a North Korean prison for life.

The concept of "damnation" (hell) ultimately is death.
Our God is just, even merciful. Do't expext a worse punishment than you deserve.

Mk:16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Jn:3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[Divine Insight]

Apologists often say that God doesn't send non-believers to hell, they send themselves by not wanting to be with God. But if that is the case then non-believers don't want to go to hell either and yet they supposedly end up there anyway. So, why wouldn't God create a place for people who are otherwise just as good as believers but whose only "sin" was not believing or accepting God? Why would God create only two options in which one of them "punishes" equally people who do really evil things and people who may actually be better human beings than many Christians but simply do not believe in God.
To me it's the equivalent of someone inviting people to his birthday party and whoever decides to come will have lots of fun, food and everything else but whoever refuses the invitation gets sent to a North Korean prison for life.

Christianity is a scam religion. There is no truth to it.

It's just a religion that holds out emotional terrorism toward anyone who refuses to support its religious bigotries. That's all the religion amounts to.

In fact, in order to support these absurd claims they need to hold out the notion that anyone who doesn't believe in their God is an innately horrible person who deserves damnation.

That can't fly. And it doesn't fly. It's a lie.

So the religion is based upon a lie.

As you point out in your OP it's utterly absurd to think that some supremely all-wise God would be so ignorant as to cast people into eternal damnation for merely not believing in him.

In fact, I'm living proof that this is false. I have no problem believing in a truly benevolent God. I totally embrace wisdom, benevolence, righteousness, and all that this GOOD.

Yet Christianity would have me condemned because I don't support their ignorance, malevolence, hypocrisy, and basically everything that is NOT GOOD.

I reject Christianity for it's malevolence, not it's righteousness.

And so their God would need to condemn me for rejecting malevolence.

That makes absolutely no sense at all.

So Christianity cannot be true.

[charles_hamm]

Apologists often say that God doesn't send non-believers to hell, they send themselves by not wanting to be with God. But if that is the case then non-believers don't want to go to hell either and yet they supposedly end up there anyway. So, why wouldn't God create a place for people who are otherwise just as good as believers but whose only "sin" was not believing or accepting God? Why would God create only two options in which one of them "punishes" equally people who do really evil things and people who may actually be better human beings than many Christians but simply do not believe in God.
To me it's the equivalent of someone inviting people to his birthday party and whoever decides to come will have lots of fun, food and everything else but whoever refuses the invitation gets sent to a North Korean prison for life.

Christianity is a scam religion. There is no truth to it.

This is a bold statement for someone who claims to have wisdom.

It's just a religion that holds out emotional terrorism toward anyone who refuses to support its religious bigotries. That's all the religion amounts to.

So when you say emotional terrorism are you talking about the peace of eternal salvation that Christianity offers believers? Christianity simply states that there is a result of not believing. That result is an eternity spent apart from God. Also the definition of a bigot is as follows:

a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Maybe you should lay off calling Christians "bigots" since anyone who refuses to change their opinion on this forum could be labeled as such.

In fact, in order to support these absurd claims they need to hold out the notion that anyone who doesn't believe in their God is an innately horrible person who deserves damnation.

Wrong. You don't have to be a horrible person (by human standards anyway) to be in Hell. Hell is just a place apart from God. I guess the first question I would want to ask a non believer is why they would want to be around God when they spent their entire life saying he didn't exist?

That can't fly. And it doesn't fly. It's a lie.

Well what you mislabeled as Christian belief is a lie. And no that lie doesn't fly. I don't think for a moment you're a horrible person. You maybe a great person. It's not my call to make on that. God judges by His standards, not mine.

So the religion is based upon a lie.

Yes the false religious beliefs you present are a lie so that non existent religion is a lie

As you point out in your OP it's utterly absurd to think that some supremely all-wise God would be so ignorant as to cast people into eternal damnation for merely not believing in him.

As I pointed out, the requirement to get into Heaven in belief in Jesus as your saviour for the Christian religion. The punishment for not believing is separation from God.

In fact, I'm living proof that this is false. I have no problem believing in a truly benevolent God. I totally embrace wisdom, benevolence, righteousness, and all that this GOOD.

Please give me a definition of GOOD that can be universally accepted. I think you'll find it's next to impossible. If you truly embrace wisdom then get the beliefs of the Christians correct. Also please explain how you can be living proof that anything in the afterlife is false since you are presumably still alive. You are living proof of Gods longsuffering. You are living proof of Gods mercy.

Yet Christianity would have me condemned because I don't support their ignorance, malevolence, hypocrisy, and basically everything that is NOT GOOD.

Christians have no ability to condem you. That judgement comes from God alone. I can no more send you to Hell than I can fly to Mars. I think you may want to re-evaluate what you call ignorance, malevolence and hypocrisy. Christians are wise enough to understand we are not perfect and we need an example of perfection to strive for. That would be Jesus. We are not malevolent. Christianity offers hope to anyone who accepts the word of God as truth. As for hypocritical, please be more specific. As a human, I am hypocritical in some areas. That does not make Christianity as a whole hypocritical. In opinion it is hypocritical for some to quote the Bible to try to prove how evil God is or to even try to prove God does not exist.

I reject Christianity for it's malevolence, not it's righteousness.

Then you would be rejecting Christianity for something that is incorrect.

And so their God would need to condemn me for rejecting malevolence.

God would be, in you hypothetical here, condeming you for holding a false belief about Christianity and therefore not accepting His son as your saviour.

That makes absolutely no sense at all.

It makes perfect sense once you realize your views on Christianity don't line up with the way Christianity actually is. It seems to me you reject Christianity for the malevolence of trying to show you how to have eternal life.

So Christianity cannot be true.

Based on your false assumptions and prejudiced judgements, no the religion you describe can't be true. Christianity, however, is very true.

[Divine Insight]

Christianity is a scam religion. There is no truth to it.

This is a bold statement for someone who claims to have wisdom.

I'm just being honest. This is exactly how I see it. Christianity was basically an invention of the Romans to keep superstitious people under their thumb. It's an extremely immoral brainwashing scam, IMHO, and I reject it as such.

You talk about wisdom, but I see no wisdom in the idea of a supposedly diving creator who would need to have his only begotten son beaten and nailed to a pole by men before he could forgive men of their sins. From my perspective that is absolutely ludicrous.

Why would a supposedly all-wise supreme being stoop so low as to actually have men disobey his command not to kill people and instead crucified his own son before you can "forgive" them of their sins?

To me this is the most unwise mythology ever written by the hands of men. I can't even begin to imagine a God who could possibly be this ignorant.

It's just a religion that holds out emotional terrorism toward anyone who refuses to support its religious bigotries. That's all the religion amounts to.

So when you say emotional terrorism are you talking about the peace of eternal salvation that Christianity offers believers? Christianity simply states that there is a result of not believing. That result is an eternity spent apart from God. Also the definition of a bigot is as follows:

a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Maybe you should lay off calling Christians "bigots" since anyone who refuses to change their opinion on this forum could be labeled as such.

I never did call Christians bigots. I was speaking to a religious doctrine.

In fact, most followers of this doctrine who claim to be "Christians" will often claim that this is not their opinion but rather it's the desire of their God. So it is the religion and the God that is bigoted, not necessarily the followers. The followers are merely victims of the religion.

In fact, in order to support these absurd claims they need to hold out the notion that anyone who doesn't believe in their God is an innately horrible person who deserves damnation.

Wrong. You don't have to be a horrible person (by human standards anyway) to be in Hell. Hell is just a place apart from God. I guess the first question I would want to ask a non believer is why they would want to be around God when they spent their entire life saying he didn't exist?

I'm not an atheist. That's your erroneous assumption right there.

You are doing nothing other than trying to hold Christian arrogance over my head by acting like as if Christianity represent "God".

I reject that very notion. Christianity is one of the most ungodly religions ever invented by men and it has absolutely nothing at all to do with any supreme being, IMHO.

That can't fly. And it doesn't fly. It's a lie.

Well what you mislabeled as Christian belief is a lie. And no that lie doesn't fly. I don't think for a moment you're a horrible person. You maybe a great person. It's not my call to make on that. God judges by His standards, not mine.

Again, I'm not talking about you, or any other 'followers' of this religion. I'm addressing the religion itself:


Romans 1:
[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
[29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
[30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
[31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


Also

Psalms14:1: The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

It's the religion itself that is making these charges Charles. If you disagree with the religion I would then ask why you bother supporting a religion that you disagree with?

So the religion is based upon a lie.

Yes the false religious beliefs you present are a lie so that non existent religion is a lie

If you disagree with the verses I posted above then what part of your religion do you agree with?

I speak to the religion which his based on the Bible. You seem to be speaking to some other religion.

As you point out in your OP it's utterly absurd to think that some supremely all-wise God would be so ignorant as to cast people into eternal damnation for merely not believing in him.

As I pointed out, the requirement to get into Heaven in belief in Jesus as your saviour for the Christian religion. The punishment for not believing is separation from God.

Same difference. You're still supporting the hatred of Christianity that demands that if someone disagrees with the Bible and the ideal that Jesus is the demigod son of the God of Abraham, then this results in separation from the God of Abraham. That may be true in Christinaity. But there is no reason for anyone to believe that the Hebrew God of Abraham represent any real God.

You are working entirely under the assumption that the Hebrew myths of the God of Abraham represent "God". IMHO, that's a false notion right there.

So for you to tell me that rejection of the Hebrew myths is justification for separation from "God" is already Abrahamic arrogance.

All you're doing here is acting like Christianity holds the patent rights on "God".

From my perspective that's already a form of hateful arrogance.

I don't believe in the hateful God of Christianity. A God who would abandon or harm anyone simply because they don't by into Christian/Hebrew mythology.

In fact, I'm living proof that this is false. I have no problem believing in a truly benevolent God. I totally embrace wisdom, benevolence, righteousness, and all that this GOOD.

Please give me a definition of GOOD that can be universally accepted. I think you'll find it's next to impossible. If you truly embrace wisdom then get the beliefs of the Christians correct. Also please explain how you can be living proof that anything in the afterlife is false since you are presumably still alive. You are living proof of Gods longsuffering. You are living proof of Gods mercy.

I've already shown that I have a better understanding of Christian doctrine than you do.

I'm living proof that the verses I posted above are lies.

I don't believe in the God of Abraham as these doctrines demand, yet I'm not a backbiter, hater of God, inventor of evil, disobedient to parents and unable to doeth good.

Those are lies. Yet they are part of the Christian doctrine, therefore the Christian doctrine contains lies. At best, it can't be 100% true. More realistically, it's probably far closer to being 100% false.

Yet Christianity would have me condemned because I don't support their ignorance, malevolence, hypocrisy, and basically everything that is NOT GOOD.

Christians have no ability to condem you. That judgement comes from God alone. I can no more send you to Hell than I can fly to Mars. I think you may want to re-evaluate what you call ignorance, malevolence and hypocrisy. Christians are wise enough to understand we are not perfect and we need an example of perfection to strive for. That would be Jesus. We are not malevolent. Christianity offers hope to anyone who accepts the word of God as truth. As for hypocritical, please be more specific. As a human, I am hypocritical in some areas. That does not make Christianity as a whole hypocritical. In opinion it is hypocritical for some to quote the Bible to try to prove how evil God is or to even try to prove God does not exist.

Again, you're confusing followers of the religion with the religion itself.

When I talk about "Christians" I'm talking about the actual authors of the Bible, specifically the New Testament. The men who wrote the following:

Mark 16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So this isn't about you Charles. I'm speaking directly to the religion. Not the followers of the religion. The followers are themselves victims of this religion.

I reject Christianity for it's malevolence, not it's righteousness.

Then you would be rejecting Christianity for something that is incorrect.

But it is correct according to the actual doctrine that is the religion. A doctrine that you appear to be in conflict with.

And so their God would need to condemn me for rejecting malevolence.

God would be, in you hypothetical here, condeming you for holding a false belief about Christianity and therefore not accepting His son as your saviour.

If I have a misunderstanding of Christianity that can only be God's fault for not having created a sound and clear religion and doctrine in the first place.

Just look at how many people argue over what this religion supposedly means.

Even the so-called "believers" can't agree on these ancient fables and rumors.

The Jews and Muslims don't even believe that Jesus was the only begotten son of this God much less that he represents some sort of sacrificial lamb to pay for the sins of mankind.

The Christian Protestants protested against the "Body of Christ" which is the Catholic Church and renounced the Papal authority of the Pope. They then continued to protest against each others views of the Bible creating countless thousands of disagreeing denominations.

Yet you are telling me that this God must condemn all these confused people due to his own ineptitude to create a sounds and unambiguous religion?

As far as I'm concerned the extreme ambiguity and confusion that exists in Christianity and the Abrahamic religions in general is proof positive that they can't be the word of any "All-wise Supreme Being".

The religion has proven itself to be false.

If there were a benevolent God associated with this religion, rather than condemning non-believers, he would owe them a HUGE apology for his own ineptitude as a communicator.

There is absolutely no excuse for a truly divine doctrine to be in such shambles.

That makes absolutely no sense at all.

It makes perfect sense once you realize your views on Christianity don't line up with the way Christianity actually is. It seems to me you reject Christianity for the malevolence of trying to show you how to have eternal life.

So Christianity cannot be true.

Based on your false assumptions and prejudiced judgements, no the religion you describe can't be true. Christianity, however, is very true.

What I have described is based entirely on the Christian doctrine.

And apparently you don't like that doctrine. Which raises the question of why you bother supporting a doctrine that you don't even agree with?

There are far better spiritual philosophies out there to support.

Why support a religion that claims that their God will condemn people for merely not believing in him. Where is there any righteousness in such nonsense?

Even the Bible has Jesus himself contradicting this view:

Luke.23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do

Jesus is prepared to forgive people for not knowing what they do, but "Christiandom" holds out that this God will condemn people for merely not believing as stated in Mark 16:16 and John 3:18.

These fables and rumors even contradiction themselves.

Who should we believe? Mark and John? Or Jesus?

If we believe Jesus as stated by Luke 23:34 then most of what "Christiandom" holds to be true is actually quite false.

Jesus will forgive people for merely not knowing what they do.

More over, we also have:

John.5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

If that's taken as truth, and Jesus pleas that people should be forgiven in they merely know not what they do, then the whole position of "Christiandom" that it's important to accept Jesus as your savior is totally false.

So the myths of this religion aren't even self-consistent much less clear.

According to Jesus disbelief is fine as long as your disbelief is sincere (i.e. that you know not what you do in terms of your disbelief).

I certainly have solid reasons for rejecting Christianity. If there were any truth to the God of Christianity he would owe me a HUGE apology for having created such a totally ambiguous and self-contradiction shambles of a religion.

He certainly wouldn't be in any position to be demanding that I believe in it.

[Nickman]

Apologists often say that God doesn't send non-believers to hell, they send themselves by not wanting to be with God. But if that is the case then non-believers don't want to go to hell either and yet they supposedly end up there anyway. So, why wouldn't God create a place for people who are otherwise just as good as believers but whose only "sin" was not believing or accepting God? Why would God create only two options in which one of them "punishes" equally people who do really evil things and people who may actually be better human beings than many Christians but simply do not believe in God.
To me it's the equivalent of someone inviting people to his birthday party and whoever decides to come will have lots of fun, food and everything else but whoever refuses the invitation gets sent to a North Korean prison for life.

Here is one of my favorite videos on this subject. People say that we send ourselves to hell just like the lady in the video. Dillahunty drops logic on her.

[youtube][/youtube]

[Truely Free]

Apologists often say that God doesn't send non-believers to hell, they send themselves by not wanting to be with God. But if that is the case then non-believers don't want to go to hell either and yet they supposedly end up there anyway. So, why wouldn't God create a place for people who are otherwise just as good as believers but whose only "sin" was not believing or accepting God? Why would God create only two options in which one of them "punishes" equally people who do really evil things and people who may actually be better human beings than many Christians but simply do not believe in God.
To me it's the equivalent of someone inviting people to his birthday party and whoever decides to come will have lots of fun, food and everything else but whoever refuses the invitation gets sent to a North Korean prison for life.

My answer in short, lost guest, is because the absence of God, as taught by the Bible, is Hell.

[southern cross]

Apologists often say that God doesn't send non-believers to hell, they send themselves by not wanting to be with God. But if that is the case then non-believers don't want to go to hell either and yet they supposedly end up there anyway. So, why wouldn't God create a place for people who are otherwise just as good as believers but whose only "sin" was not believing or accepting God? Why would God create only two options in which one of them "punishes" equally people who do really evil things and people who may actually be better human beings than many Christians but simply do not believe in God.
To me it's the equivalent of someone inviting people to his birthday party and whoever decides to come will have lots of fun, food and everything else but whoever refuses the invitation gets sent to a North Korean prison for life.

My answer in short, lost guest, is because the absence of God, as taught by the Bible, is Hell.

So hell is meaningless to atheists.

[charles_hamm]

Christianity is a scam religion. There is no truth to it.

This is a bold statement for someone who claims to have wisdom.

I'm just being honest. This is exactly how I see it. Christianity was basically an invention of the Romans to keep superstitious people under their thumb. It's an extremely immoral brainwashing scam, IMHO, and I reject it as such.

You talk about wisdom, but I see no wisdom in the idea of a supposedly diving creator who would need to have his only begotten son beaten and nailed to a pole by men before he could forgive men of their sins. From my perspective that is absolutely ludicrous.

Why would a supposedly all-wise supreme being stoop so low as to actually have men disobey his command not to kill people and instead crucified his own son before you can "forgive" them of their sins?

To me this is the most unwise mythology ever written by the hands of men. I can't even begin to imagine a God who could possibly be this ignorant.

I've got to be honest, I've never heard of the Romans starting Christianity. Since the Bible was passed down by word of mouth long before the Romans crucified Jesus I don't see how that works. Also the Romans did not like Christians. They persecuted and killed them.

His son was beaten and nailed to the cross not because God needed it to happen, but because we did. Mankind needed a perfect love offering due to our sinful nature. If you look, the Jews could not keep all 600 and something laws so they were failing to obey God’s word. Mankind needed someone who did obey all the laws and remained sinless to replace the burnt offerings that were being given prior to Jesus. Jesus was the last blood offering because He remained pure, perfect and holy throughout his life.

Please tell me why you God would “have “men disobey any of His commands. I believe that before you presume God to be ignorant you should look at the nature of man before Jesus came. I believe you will see that He was and is infinitely wiser than any man ever was or ever will be.

It's just a religion that holds out emotional terrorism toward anyone who refuses to support its religious bigotries. That's all the religion amounts to.

So when you say emotional terrorism are you talking about the peace of eternal salvation that Christianity offers believers? Christianity simply states that there is a result of not believing. That result is an eternity spent apart from God. Also the definition of a bigot is as follows:

a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Maybe you should lay off calling Christians "bigots" since anyone who refuses to change their opinion on this forum could be labeled as such.

I never did call Christians bigots. I was speaking to a religious doctrine.

In fact, most followers of this doctrine who claim to be "Christians" will often claim that this is not their opinion but rather it's the desire of their God. So it is the religion and the God that is bigoted, not necessarily the followers. The followers are merely victims of the religion.

You called the doctrine “religious bigotries�. If a person believes and supports that doctrine then how can you not be calling the person a bigot as well? I believe you are misunderstanding when a Christian tells you this. I will speak only for me, but when I speak of God’s judgment on non-believers I believe it’s just and fair. I’m no victim of anything and I would venture to say most Christians are not either.

In fact, in order to support these absurd claims they need to hold out the notion that anyone who doesn't believe in their God is an innately horrible person who deserves damnation.

Wrong. You don't have to be a horrible person (by human standards anyway) to be in Hell. Hell is just a place apart from God. I guess the first question I would want to ask a non believer is why they would want to be around God when they spent their entire life saying he didn't exist?

I'm not an atheist. That's your erroneous assumption right there.

You are doing nothing other than trying to hold Christian arrogance over my head by acting like as if Christianity represent "God".

I reject that very notion. Christianity is one of the most ungodly religions ever invented by men and it has absolutely nothing at all to do with any supreme being, IMHO.

You have gotten this all wrong. I never said you were an atheist. We are discussing Christianity so as this conversation pertains to Christianity you are a non-believer, as you have already stated. The assumption is on your part, not mine. Once again we are discussing Christianity so Christianity does represent God. There is no arrogance involved; only sticking to the topic at hand. Christianity has everything to do with God. It’s based on God and His son. It’s about living as God would have you live. It’s about attempting to act as Jesus did when He was on Earth. We fail, but we still try.

That can't fly. And it doesn't fly. It's a lie.

Well what you mislabeled as Christian belief is a lie. And no that lie doesn't fly. I don't think for a moment you're a horrible person. You maybe a great person. It's not my call to make on that. God judges by His standards, not mine.

Again, I'm not talking about you, or any other 'followers' of this religion. I'm addressing the religion itself:


Romans 1:
[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
[29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
[30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
[31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


Also

Psalms14:1: The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

It's the religion itself that is making these charges Charles. If you disagree with the religion I would then ask why you bother supporting a religion that you disagree with?

Here we go verse by verse applied to today’s people and not just the Romans Paul was talking to.
Romans 1:28 put simply means that people have a personal knowledge of God so they are without excuse, and God gives them over to their own depraved minds, with them being people who made the choice not to believe in him. In other words He lets them do what they want to do even though what they want to do is wrong.
Romans 1:29-31 I’ve combined these because all they are is a list of the moral vices common of the time period. They still hold true to this day though.
Romans 1:32 Paul says that the people who don’t believe and do the moral vices in verses 29-31 are without excuse since they know the judgment of God, which is death. He also goes on to say that the ones who are like this also are happy when they convince others to do as they do.
Psalms 14:1 this actually says the same as Romans 1:28. It says that people who say there is no God are fooling themselves. It also says, similar to Romans 1:28 that are corrupt, part of a reprobate mind, they do abominable works such as the list in Romans 1:29-32 and they don’t do good works.
This not meant to be a charge. It’s meant to be a warning. Paul showed how the Romans, and likely others, were acting at that time and told them the consequences of their actions. I support that completely. I agree with it completely.

So the religion is based upon a lie.

Yes the false religious beliefs you present are a lie so that non existent religion is a lie

If you disagree with the verses I posted above then what part of your religion do you agree with?

I speak to the religion which his based on the Bible. You seem to be speaking to some other religion.

I disagree with your misinterpretation of the verses and misapplication of them. I agree with every part of Christianity. You speak to the way you view Christianity. You do not speak to the reality of it. I was speaking to your views of it, which is not Christianity itself, but in effect a new religion based on your views only.

As you point out in your OP it's utterly absurd to think that some supremely all-wise God would be so ignorant as to cast people into eternal damnation for merely not believing in him.

As I pointed out, the requirement to get into Heaven in belief in Jesus as your saviour for the Christian religion. The punishment for not believing is separation from God.

Same difference. You're still supporting the hatred of Christianity that demands that if someone disagrees with the Bible and the ideal that Jesus is the demigod son of the God of Abraham, then this results in separation from the God of Abraham. That may be true in Christinaity. But there is no reason for anyone to believe that the Hebrew God of Abraham represent any real God.

You are working entirely under the assumption that the Hebrew myths of the God of Abraham represent "God". IMHO, that's a false notion right there.

So for you to tell me that rejection of the Hebrew myths is justification for separation from "God" is already Abrahamic arrogance.

All you're doing here is acting like Christianity holds the patent rights on "God".

From my perspective that's already a form of hateful arrogance.

I don't believe in the hateful God of Christianity. A God who would abandon or harm anyone simply because they don't by into Christian/Hebrew mythology.

Since we are discussing Christianity here, then yes there is reason to believe God is the real God. In my opinion you are already making a judgment that God is not the real God and that is a false notion. I believe for you to say that the Christian God is not a real God is arrogance. I believe that when you question Gods intelligence that is arrogant. I’m speaking my faith. In my opinion, the Christian God is the only God.

In fact, I'm living proof that this is false. I have no problem believing in a truly benevolent God. I totally embrace wisdom, benevolence, righteousness, and all that this GOOD.

Please give me a definition of GOOD that can be universally accepted. I think you'll find it's next to impossible. If you truly embrace wisdom then get the beliefs of the Christians correct. Also please explain how you can be living proof that anything in the afterlife is false since you are presumably still alive. You are living proof of Gods longsuffering. You are living proof of Gods mercy.

I've already shown that I have a better understanding of Christian doctrine than you do.

I'm living proof that the verses I posted above are lies.

I don't believe in the God of Abraham as these doctrines demand, yet I'm not a backbiter, hater of God, inventor of evil, disobedient to parents and unable to doeth good.

Those are lies. Yet they are part of the Christian doctrine, therefore the Christian doctrine contains lies. At best, it can't be 100% true. More realistically, it's probably far closer to being 100% false.

What you’ve shown is that you can read. That’s all. You’ve not shown your ability to comprehend what was said in these verses. You’re not living proof of this since you didn’t know what the verses actually talked about. You can’t prove something you don’t understand at all. So you say you are not a backbiter, but you continually say mean and spiteful things about God and His religion. You say you’re not a hater of God, yet you call him ignorant, hateful and ungodly. You say you are not an inventor of evil, yet you say things to attempt to discredit God and His religion. Obliviously I’ve never met you so I have absolutely no idea about your obedience to your parents. Since you were unable to provide an universally accepted definition of good I believe that you can’t say that you doeth good in the eyes of God. Since we are addressing Christianity here, all remarks are about the Christian God only. I actually just showed you using only the examples you provided that they are in fact not lies. Your conclusion is faulty because you do not take into account anything you have said against God or His religion in my opinion.

Yet Christianity would have me condemned because I don't support their ignorance, malevolence, hypocrisy, and basically everything that is NOT GOOD.

Christians have no ability to condem you. That judgement comes from God alone. I can no more send you to Hell than I can fly to Mars. I think you may want to re-evaluate what you call ignorance, malevolence and hypocrisy. Christians are wise enough to understand we are not perfect and we need an example of perfection to strive for. That would be Jesus. We are not malevolent. Christianity offers hope to anyone who accepts the word of God as truth. As for hypocritical, please be more specific. As a human, I am hypocritical in some areas. That does not make Christianity as a whole hypocritical. In opinion it is hypocritical for some to quote the Bible to try to prove how evil God is or to even try to prove God does not exist.

Again, you're confusing followers of the religion with the religion itself.

When I talk about "Christians" I'm talking about the actual authors of the Bible, specifically the New Testament. The men who wrote the following:

Mark 16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So this isn't about you Charles. I'm speaking directly to the religion. Not the followers of the religion. The followers are themselves victims of this religion.

You can’t separate a Christian from Christianity like you are trying to do. Christianity is not just represented by the authors of the Bible. It is represented by Christians who believe the Bible to be infallible. Once again, I am not a victim of anything. Just as anyone who does not believe and is judged is not a victim.

I reject Christianity for it's malevolence, not it's righteousness.

Then you would be rejecting Christianity for something that is incorrect.

But it is correct according to the actual doctrine that is the religion. A doctrine that you appear to be in conflict with.

Once again, no it is not correct according to the doctrine. There is no intent to do evil in the Christian doctrine. I am in 100% agreement with the Christian doctrine. I believe according to the verses you posted the Christian doctrine even condemns malevolence. You are far from having an accurate view of Christian doctrine, in my opinion.

And so their God would need to condemn me for rejecting malevolence.

God would be, in you hypothetical here, condeming you for holding a false belief about Christianity and therefore not accepting His son as your saviour.

If I have a misunderstanding of Christianity that can only be God's fault for not having created a sound and clear religion and doctrine in the first place.

Just look at how many people argue over what this religion supposedly means.

Even the so-called "believers" can't agree on these ancient fables and rumors.

The Jews and Muslims don't even believe that Jesus was the only begotten son of this God much less that he represents some sort of sacrificial lamb to pay for the sins of mankind.

The Christian Protestants protested against the "Body of Christ" which is the Catholic Church and renounced the Papal authority of the Pope. They then continued to protest against each others views of the Bible creating countless thousands of disagreeing denominations.

Yet you are telling me that this God must condemn all these confused people due to his own ineptitude to create a sounds and unambiguous religion?

As far as I'm concerned the extreme ambiguity and confusion that exists in Christianity and the Abrahamic religions in general is proof positive that they can't be the word of any "All-wise Supreme Being".

The religion has proven itself to be false.

If there were a benevolent God associated with this religion, rather than condemning non-believers, he would owe them a HUGE apology for his own ineptitude as a communicator.

There is absolutely no excuse for a truly divine doctrine to be in such shambles.

So you blame God for your misunderstanding of the Christian doctrine? In my opinion this equates to blaming your college professor for not understanding History when you rarely went to class, only read half the book, never took notes and never asked him any questions. Sounds crazy when it’s put that way, doesn’t it. We are discussing Christianity here, not Judaism, not Islam, not any other religion. That’s what the OP called out so why do you keep using other religions? A second option, to use my example above, would be to learn about God rather than try to blame him for what non-believers don’t understand. There’s no excuse not to understand the Bible to the best of one’s ability in my opinion.

That makes absolutely no sense at all.

It makes perfect sense once you realize your views on Christianity don't line up with the way Christianity actually is. It seems to me you reject Christianity for the malevolence of trying to show you how to have eternal life.

So Christianity cannot be true.

Based on your false assumptions and prejudiced judgements, no the religion you describe can't be true. Christianity, however, is very true.

What I have described is based entirely on the Christian doctrine.

And apparently you don't like that doctrine. Which raises the question of why you bother supporting a doctrine that you don't even agree with?

There are far better spiritual philosophies out there to support.

Why support a religion that claims that their God will condemn people for merely not believing in him. Where is there any righteousness in such nonsense?

Even the Bible has Jesus himself contradicting this view:

Luke.23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do

Jesus is prepared to forgive people for not knowing what they do, but "Christiandom" holds out that this God will condemn people for merely not believing as stated in Mark 16:16 and John 3:18.

These fables and rumors even contradiction themselves.

Who should we believe? Mark and John? Or Jesus?

If we believe Jesus as stated by Luke 23:34 then most of what "Christiandom" holds to be true is actually quite false.

Jesus will forgive people for merely not knowing what they do.

More over, we also have:

John.5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

If that's taken as truth, and Jesus pleas that people should be forgiven in they merely know not what they do, then the whole position of "Christiandom" that it's important to accept Jesus as your savior is totally false.

So the myths of this religion aren't even self-consistent much less clear.

According to Jesus disbelief is fine as long as your disbelief is sincere (i.e. that you know not what you do in terms of your disbelief).

I certainly have solid reasons for rejecting Christianity. If there were any truth to the God of Christianity he would owe me a HUGE apology for having created such a totally ambiguous and self-contradiction shambles of a religion.

What you have described is a twisted view, in my opinion, of the Christian doctrine that is in no way supported by scripture. You presented scripture without any understanding of what it meant and that probably led to this misguided view, in my opinion. You quote even more scripture without understanding it. In Luke 23:34 Jesus is asking for forgiveness for the non-believers in his role as the highest priest in the church. Notice nowhere in there did He ask for their salvation. He asked for forgiveness, which is freely given to all that ask. You used this verse but didn’t take into account that Jesus said “I am the way, the truth and the light and none cometh to the father but by the Son.� A non-believer has to ask for forgiveness. It is not just granted to them. All three of them said the same thing. Not again. O.K. I’ll explain this one too. John 5:22 does say all judgment comes from the Son. Jesus has already told everyone, the only way to Heaven is to believe in me as your savior. So yes Jesus is prepared forgive all who accept him. He always has been ready. According to Jesus belief is the only way to get into Heaven.

He certainly wouldn't be in any position to be demanding that I believe in it.

You have your reasons for rejecting it, but I don’t know that I would consider them solid. I think it is you would owe God an apology for the names you have called him, the twisted views of doctrine you have presented and presenting Christianity as a false religion. He doesn’t demand you believe. He states to be with him in eternity one must believe. There’s a big difference.