Someone in a post a couple of weeks ago said something along the line of "all it would take is just one miracle" to convince people God does in fact exist.
So let me ask ALL of you...what kind of miracle would it take to get you on your knees and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior? Healing someone from AIDS or cancer as a result of laying on of hands in the name of Jesus.? Healing a blindman by restoring his sight by the same way? What? Or would no miracle get you to believe. I am curious and serious, and sincerely would like to see diferent opinions on what it would take. Thanks in advance.
How about a Miracle!
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Post #2
Nearly all cures from medical ailments are subject to many different variables. The primary variable is the patients own immune system that is often fighting away in the background. This makes medical cures a very poor choice for spotting miracles. I would suggest that this is also the reason they are so popular among people who believe in miracles.
To be incontrovertible a miracle needs to be beyond explanation in principle. For example, some people are convinced that crop-circles are the work of aliens, but people have gone out with ropes and planks and made equally impressive designs to order. This fact rules out the aliens because it's been demonstrated that there is a far more down-to-earth explanation at hand: The method is known and is practical, the motive is understood and the entire scope of the phenomenon is readily reproducible.
If, however, a couple of city blocks were found to have been transported intact to the Nevada dessert over night without anyone noticing, this would qualify as being a miracle on account of there being no mechanism that could account for the phenomena -- even in principle. Trying to come up with something on a smaller scale is not so easy though. Most small-scale phenomena that we can imagine are potentially do-able with the technology at our disposal.
To be incontrovertible a miracle needs to be beyond explanation in principle. For example, some people are convinced that crop-circles are the work of aliens, but people have gone out with ropes and planks and made equally impressive designs to order. This fact rules out the aliens because it's been demonstrated that there is a far more down-to-earth explanation at hand: The method is known and is practical, the motive is understood and the entire scope of the phenomenon is readily reproducible.
If, however, a couple of city blocks were found to have been transported intact to the Nevada dessert over night without anyone noticing, this would qualify as being a miracle on account of there being no mechanism that could account for the phenomena -- even in principle. Trying to come up with something on a smaller scale is not so easy though. Most small-scale phenomena that we can imagine are potentially do-able with the technology at our disposal.
Post #3
QED, if in your "world" blindness can be so easily restored, or other medical sickness or decease, why haven't this been/being accomplished? I mean with everyone with those ailments. If I understand you correctly, and please say so if I am mistaken(which I know you would anyway lol), if I am leading a church service, and there are twenty people there that are blind, and I would lay my hands on them in the name of Jesus, and instsantly they would recieve their sight and was able to see again, that wouldn't be enough evidence for you?QED wrote:Nearly all cures from medical ailments are subject to many different variables. The primary variable is the patients own immune system that is often fighting away in the background. This makes medical cures a very poor choice for spotting miracles. I would suggest that this is also the reason they are so popular among people who believe in miracles.
To be incontrovertible a miracle needs to be beyond explanation in principle. For example, some people are convinced that crop-circles are the work of aliens, but people have gone out with ropes and planks and made equally impressive designs to order. This fact rules out the aliens because it's been demonstrated that there is a far more down-to-earth explanation at hand: The method is known and is practical, the motive is understood and the entire scope of the phenomenon is readily reproducible.
If, however, a couple of city blocks were found to have been transported intact to the Nevada dessert over night without anyone noticing, this would qualify as being a miracle on account of there being no mechanism that could account for the phenomena -- even in principle. Trying to come up with something on a smaller scale is not so easy though. Most small-scale phenomena that we can imagine are potentially do-able with the technology at our disposal.
Would that be enough evidence for anyone reading this?
What if in that same service twenty people with AIDS and cancer were also healed the same way? If that would happen, how would you explain it if not for God? And would it be enough for you or anybody in here to convert to Christianity?
Post #4
No, in our world most incurable conditions remain uncured. But every now and then someone bucks the trend and gets better. It happens. Stroke victims often find their brains rewiring themselves to recover lost abilities over time. The important point is that when considering medical conditions the body has an active self-repair system that is working as hard as it can behind the scenes. This means that the potential is there for an unexpected recovery.Sender wrote: QED, if in your "world" blindness can be so easily restored, or other medical sickness or decease, why haven't this been/being accomplished?
Pity this sort of thing never happens. What do you suppose this says for the idea of miracles?Sender wrote: If I understand you correctly, and please say so if I am mistaken(which I know you would anyway lol), if I am leading a church service, and there are twenty people there that are blind, and I would lay my hands on them in the name of Jesus, and instsantly they would recieve their sight and was able to see again, that wouldn't be enough evidence for you?
Would that be enough evidence for anyone reading this?
What if in that same service twenty people with AIDS and cancer were also healed the same way? If that would happen, how would you explain it if not for God?
Post #5
We will get to that. But did I understand you correctly it would not convince you Jesus is real, thus you would still not then convert to Christianity?QED wrote: Pity this sort of thing never happens. What do you suppose this says for the idea of miracles?
Re: How about a Miracle!
Post #6Actually, the best kind of miracle would be simply to make me believe (by supernatural means) that Jesus is my Lord and Savior. If Jesus is truly omnipotent, surely He can make me believe whatever He wants, right ?Sender wrote:So let me ask ALL of you...what kind of miracle would it take to get you on your knees and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior?
The problem with other miracles is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence -- and God, being omni-everything, would require an infinite amount of evidence. Thus, whatever miracle he produces would have to be infinite in scope, which sounds a bit destructive for my tastes.
However, smaller miracles -- such as healing everyone on Earth of all diseases simultaneously, or rearranging the stars to spell "I am the LORD", or sending down Jesus to walk among us, walking on water and healing the sick and all that -- any of these would definitely convince me that a very powerful (though not necessarily omnipotent) entity does indeed exist.
In general, a miracle would have to be:
* Highly unusual. Making the Sun rise is not a mircale; making it rise at midnight is a miracle.
* Unexplainable by known naturalistic means. A sudden, devastating hurricane is highly unusual, but we can explain why it happened (in terms of air currents, sea temperature, global warming, etc.)
* Verifiable by external sources. I have to be sure that I'm not hallucinating, or being hoaxed, or something.
* Consistent with your notion of God. If I see a 20-foot Odin bearing down on me on his warhorse, his twin ravens Hughnin and Mughnin flying before him, storms riding in his wake... that'll be a miracle all right, but it won't make me accept Jesus, exactly.
Post #7
1. We have Dr's already doing this in different degrees. So obviously we are capable of it ourselfs.So let me ask ALL of you...what kind of miracle would it take to get you on your knees and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior? (1)Healing someone from AIDS or cancer as a result of laying on of hands in the name of Jesus.? (2)Healing a blindman by restoring his sight by the same way? What? Or would no miracle get you to believe. I am curious and serious, and sincerely would like to see diferent opinions on what it would take. Thanks in advance.
2. Once again, to some degrees we can do this.
Answer to your question, which i think is obvious one (similar thread already asked this i think): If your god almighty came down and removed lets say aids (HIV) from the world, or perhaps made everyone enlightened, why would we (us atheist) not accept him, clearly Hr (or she?) showed himself to us. Your problem is, that this never happens (for some strange reason.)
Post #8
I've seen David Blaine levitate and a dozen other magicians perform 'miracles' of one sort or another. I sadly have to inform you that my faith in human nature today is as weak as my faith in anything written by men in the past. IMO the very, very last resort is to ascribe anything not understood within the natural realm to the supernatural. That step is a considerable way off from the sort of miraculous claims that have been offered so far.Sender wrote:We will get to that. But did I understand you correctly it would not convince you Jesus is real, thus you would still not then convert to Christianity?QED wrote: Pity this sort of thing never happens. What do you suppose this says for the idea of miracles?
You would like me to say that I would not consider any evidence, no matter how compelling, to be proof of a miracle... but that is not so. Some if the other guys are coming up with things that would be pretty hard to discount. But why on earth would such proof make me convert to Christianity -- unless that is, the stars were to spell it out; like arranging themselves into a cross... no! wait! there already is such a miracle! The worlds religions are replete with Gods and prophets; surely I'd get to choose?
Post #9
You are clearly pointing to the fact that he mentioned Jesus Christ and not a gneneral term of "God" as the question. I presume he do not think that "atheist" means "lack of belief in Jesus Christ", but the entire thing of "God", but formulated it a bit bad.The worlds religions are replete with Gods and prophets; surely I'd get to choose?
I think his question is valid, but pointless, as i presume you would also accept God (whichever existed) if he showed himself in a logical way (lets say spelled out our names in the sky (space)). Or ?
Post #10
Sorry to say, I think that speaks more for our lack of <i>faith</i> than it does on God not doing it, plus perhaps the time. Jesus spent about tihirty percent of the time healing the sick and casting out demons, so I believe we are supposed to do it as well, those of us with that gift according to I Corinthians 12 and 14. I am seriously sensing the return of Jesus soon. Since joining this forum, perhaps it is urgency in my posting tone that has been mistaken for arrogance or haughtyness, when I say what I say.QED wrote:No, in our world most incurable conditions remain uncured. But every now and then someone bucks the trend and gets better. It happens. Stroke victims often find their brains rewiring themselves to recover lost abilities over time. The important point is that when considering medical conditions the body has an active self-repair system that is working as hard as it can behind the scenes. This means that the potential is there for an unexpected recovery.Sender wrote: QED, if in your "world" blindness can be so easily restored, or other medical sickness or decease, why haven't this been/being accomplished?
Pity this sort of thing never happens. What do you suppose this says for the idea of miracles?Sender wrote: If I understand you correctly, and please say so if I am mistaken(which I know you would anyway lol), if I am leading a church service, and there are twenty people there that are blind, and I would lay my hands on them in the name of Jesus, and instsantly they would recieve their sight and was able to see again, that wouldn't be enough evidence for you?
Would that be enough evidence for anyone reading this?
What if in that same service twenty people with AIDS and cancer were also healed the same way? If that would happen, how would you explain it if not for God?
My heart truely goes out to all of you, for your children as well. But I am being called to preach repentance, and in a message of that nature, time is of the essence. You have been argueing and debating some of you for months or even years, so what are you going to know tomorrow that you don't already know today? New discoveries? Ok. If you think the unknown is going to pull you farther away from God, then you have already made your decision.
That's where I say ok, great, I have to move to the next one as Jesus said to do. All of you have enough information to decide for goodness sakes. Make an executive decision and prepare to live with it.
"Now is the time" the Bible says, to come to him.
I will have to maybe start another thread and state why I say this, and give you more of a background so at least you can understand my sincerety.
