Born this way

[sn00zy]

First of i want to say hello to everyone, this is my first post on this forum. Secondly i would like to say that i consider myself an Atheist, so you now know where i stand in my following question:

So, i was reading a post that someone made on another forum. He was really down and he wasn't sure what to do. He had told his family that he was an Atheist. Long story short, they told him to get out (he was living with them at the time). Now, this in my eyes is obviously over reacting. Mostly because i don't really care if a person is a Muslim, Buddhist, Christian or an Atheist. If i enjoy their company i will accept them into my home, especially if it was my own child. But as Christians, can you really blame people for their personal feelings? This is how he feels, no matter what he says or what people tell him. This is HIS belief. What really caught my attention was that this could all have been avoided (if i was thinking like a theist). If God is omnipotent and omniscient. Doesn't that mean that while he was "creating" this person, he knew that he would grow to become and Atheist and could not be convinced otherwise, he also knew that his family would "banish" him from his own home.

It's the same logic (if you can even call it that) behind homosexuality. God creates homosexuals. Why? In his eyes, homosexuals are sinful. Why would he create sinful beings, and then send them to hell for their sins? To top it off, he knew all along that they were gay, and that there was no changing it. I'm sorry if any of you find this offensive, but isn't that unnecessary and cruel.? Eternal punishment isn't really pleasant. He is creating this people to send them to hell. He knows that they wont change their ways, he has the power to change them, to make them straight.

Same thing with the creation story. "If i make Eve, i know that she will eat the forbidden fruit and i will have to kick them out and then punish thousands of humans, for thousands of years because of this event. And i will act all shocked and offended when she does it too". Creating humans for the pure fact of sending them to hell doesn't sound very Godlike does it? Now say what you want, just refrain from giving me answers like: "God works in mysterious ways" or "You cannot judge God with human logic". What else am i supposed to judge him by? I am a human, i am only capable of thinking like a human. And if it was plain and simply like that, God does this for shits and giggles. Then i frankly do not want to spend eternity with him. Knowing all the pain and suffering he has caused, just because. Please show me your thoughts, Atheist and Theist alike.
Thanks.

[gnik]

First of i want to say hello to everyone, this is my first post on this forum. Secondly i would like to say that i consider myself an Atheist, so you now know where i stand in my following question:

Hello and welcome to the forums. I am a Christian, but have several key differences in what I believe that would make some say I'm not one, So you don't know where I stand on the following question yet.

So, i was reading a post that someone made on another forum. He was really down and he wasn't sure what to do. He had told his family that he was an Atheist. Long story short, they told him to get out (he was living with them at the time). Now, this in my eyes is obviously over reacting. Mostly because i don't really care if a person is a Muslim, Buddhist, Christian or an Atheist. If i enjoy their company i will accept them into my home, especially if it was my own child. But as Christians, can you really blame people for their personal feelings?

If a person doesn't believe in God, push them away... Does that seem reasonable? Of course not. Christians are called to love everyone, not reject our own family for having a different belief. I don't believe Christianity is the issue, the probably would have acted the same regardless of there religion.

This is how he feels, no matter what he says or what people tell him. This is HIS belief.

personally, I have more respect for someone that believes what they feel is true, rather then believe what they are told.

What really caught my attention was that this could all have been avoided (if i was thinking like a theist). If God is omnipotent and omniscient. Doesn't that mean that while he was "creating" this person, he knew that he would grow to become and Atheist and could not be convinced otherwise, he also knew that his family would "banish" him from his own home.

I believe that God made a world where each person would be extremely diverse. This required many situations that could have been avoided. However this also builds character and makes us different.

It's the same logic (if you can even call it that) behind homosexuality. God creates homosexuals. Why? In his eyes, homosexuals are sinful.

This topic is an interesting one. the bible actually never mentions homosexuals. in fact there wasn't even a word for homosexuals. there was one for homosexual acts though. The argument on what is meant by the sinfulness of the homosexual acts. I personally believe it is referring to homosexual acts preformed by heterosexuals. This would be sinful as the sex would not be out of love.

Why would he create sinful beings, and then send them to hell for their sins? To top it off, he knew all along that they were gay, and that there was no changing it. I'm sorry if any of you find this offensive, but isn't that unnecessary and cruel.?

This is a debate site. Questioning and challenging are important things. I don't think anyone would find your asking offensive. but as I sated above, I don't believe that homosexuality is wrong. partly for the fact that the person cannot change it. However one can change there belief. The person you mentioned may become a Christian. But that is another matter.

Eternal punishment isn't really pleasant. He is creating this people to send them to hell. He knows that they wont change their ways, he has the power to change them, to make them straight.

Same thing with the creation story. "If i make Eve, i know that she will eat the forbidden fruit and i will have to kick them out and then punish thousands of humans, for thousands of years because of this event. And i will act all shocked and offended when she does it too".

Personally I don't believe the sin there was in the eating of the fruit. But rather in passing the blame on to the snake. While this was true, Adam and Eve did so to escape punishment. We can tell this because they just ate from the tree of knowledge good and evil. The problem was that they chose to do something they knew was wrong. That is for a different topic though.

Creating humans for the pure fact of sending them to hell doesn't sound very Godlike does it? Now say what you want, just refrain from giving me answers like: "God works in mysterious ways" or "You cannot judge God with human logic". What else am i supposed to judge him by? I am a human, i am only capable of thinking like a human. And if it was plain and simply like that, God does this for shits and giggles. Then i frankly do not want to spend eternity with him.

Normally I would answer with the fact that God is all knowing so knows something we don't, but that would be a bit too general of a statement that it wouldn't have much grounds. I will use an example instead. I had a teacher in 3rd grade that picked me out as the kid that she didn't like. I did nothing wrong. but she was so bad that I went into home school. stopping there, one would ask, why would God give me a teacher that was that bad? I still have problems with people I don't know because of what she did. But because I left school for a few years, almost no one knew who I was. only one person remembered me. that person led me to a different person. that person led me to a person that is now my best friend. I wouldn't have gotten through some things in my life without them. but I never would have met him if that teacher didn't pick me out. Sometimes the good outweighs the bad. We don't know. but sometimes if we look back, we can see the good things.

Knowing all the pain and suffering he has caused, just because. Please show me your thoughts, Atheist and Theist alike.
Thanks.

I don't expect Christianity to solve all the problems, nor do I expect God to. I tend to see the world as what we make it. I'm open to questions about anything.

[sn00zy]

"Normally I would answer with the fact that God is all knowing so knows something we don't, but that would be a bit too general of a statement that it wouldn't have much grounds. I will use an example instead. I had a teacher in 3rd grade that picked me out as the kid that she didn't like. I did nothing wrong. but she was so bad that I went into home school. stopping there, one would ask, why would God give me a teacher that was that bad? I still have problems with people I don't know because of what she did. But because I left school for a few years, almost no one knew who I was. only one person remembered me. that person led me to a different person. that person led me to a person that is now my best friend. I wouldn't have gotten through some things in my life without them. but I never would have met him if that teacher didn't pick me out. Sometimes the good outweighs the bad. We don't know. but sometimes if we look back, we can see the good things."

Yeah, i have heard that story before. "In order for a great sword to be made, it has to be forged in fire".... yatta yatta, the list goes on. Although this sounds much greater than it is. We can look at the world we live in today, and we see all around us. Whenever someone succeeds, 5 people fail. When humans build houses, fly planes, go into space. Rain forest fall, icebergs melt and habitat is lost. Thousands of animals die (because of our greed) and thousands of humans die. some of which, never had a happy ending. What i am saying is that with all the power in the world, he could not do better? Sacrifice is necessary in war, a war which God let happen. I once had a childhood friend who suffered from leukemia. When he died i was 16. He was an only child and his parents had divorced. His mother has nothing left, no husband, no children. She has lost everything. What good can come from that? I'm sorry but i will not be so insensitive or selfish as to say that it had a "positive" effect on my life in that i made me a stronger person. She is now too old to have anymore kids. Nothing good will ever come of that event, it didn't make anyone stronger. If anything it made me weaker. I have asked other Theists why God would do that, or a variation of that. And i get one out of two answers.

1. The give me an answer for themselves. An answer that would obviously only satisfy a Theist. "He is in a better place now" or "That's the way God created the world". That doesn't mean anything to an Atheist.

2. They simply shrug and say "I don't know"

This is why i will never be a Theist. The whole idea that there is an order of all things and that there is a reason for everything doesn't give me answers that will satisfy me. I kinda felt that way with our reply. It did not do much for me. I was kinda left "unsatisfied". It's usually like that since most Theist always have their on "take" on their religion. Which i respect, i would much rather have a conversation with you than a hardcore fundamentalist. Since Atheist usually use science as a way to test, explore or explain things. There isn't really anyone who picks and chooses parts of science to believe in. But since the bible has close to 0% evidence its easy to get away with it. So when i am given an answer, it usually doesn't explain things. The person usually just tells me that there are other ways of thinking about it.

[gnik]

Normally I would answer with the fact that God is all knowing so knows something we don't, but that would be a bit too general of a statement that it wouldn't have much grounds. I will use an example instead. I had a teacher in 3rd grade that picked me out as the kid that she didn't like. I did nothing wrong. but she was so bad that I went into home school. stopping there, one would ask, why would God give me a teacher that was that bad? I still have problems with people I don't know because of what she did. But because I left school for a few years, almost no one knew who I was. only one person remembered me. that person led me to a different person. that person led me to a person that is now my best friend. I wouldn't have gotten through some things in my life without them. but I never would have met him if that teacher didn't pick me out. Sometimes the good outweighs the bad. We don't know. but sometimes if we look back, we can see the good things.

Yeah, i have heard that story before. "In order for a great sword to be made, it has to be forged in fire".... yatta yatta, the list goes on. Although this sounds much greater than it is. We can look at the world we live in today, and we see all around us. Whenever someone succeeds, 5 people fail. When humans build houses, fly planes, go into space. Rain forest fall, icebergs melt and habitat is lost. Thousands of animals die (because of our greed) and thousands of humans die. some of which, never had a happy ending. What i am saying is that with all the power in the world, he could not do better? Sacrifice is necessary in war, a war which God let happen. I once had a childhood friend who suffered from leukemia. When he died i was 16. He was an only child and his parents had divorced. His mother has nothing left, no husband, no children. She has lost everything. What good can come from that? I'm sorry but i will not be so insensitive or selfish as to say that it had a "positive" effect on my life in that i made me a stronger person. She is now too old to have anymore kids. Nothing good will ever come of that event, it didn't make anyone stronger. If anything it made me weaker. I have asked other Theists why God would do that, or a variation of that. And i get one out of two answers.

1. The give me an answer for themselves. An answer that would obviously only satisfy a Theist. "He is in a better place now" or "That's the way God created the world". That doesn't mean anything to an Atheist.

2. They simply shrug and say "I don't know"

This is why i will never be a Theist. The whole idea that there is an order of all things and that there is a reason for everything doesn't give me answers that will satisfy me. I kinda felt that way with our reply. It did not do much for me. I was kinda left "unsatisfied". It's usually like that since most Theist always have their on "take" on their religion. Which i respect, i would much rather have a conversation with you than a hardcore fundamentalist. Since Atheist usually use science as a way to test, explore or explain things. There isn't really anyone who picks and chooses parts of science to believe in. But since the bible has close to 0% evidence its easy to get away with it. So when i am given an answer, it usually doesn't explain things. The person usually just tells me that there are other ways of thinking about it.

I will explain something that separate Christianity from any other religion. When, according to the bible, Adam and Eve sinned, the world became broken. This means that not everything works out for good. God can make anything work for good, but doesn't do so with everything. This is not how this world should be. Christianity is the only religion that believes the world is not how it was meant to be. This is what separates Christianity from any other belief system. I will not tell you that Christianity has all the answers. I do not believe that Christians usually do the right thing, either. But I do know that I believe what I believe, not because I was told to, but it is what I believe. And anyone that comes to know what they believe on there own accord have a better chance at coming to the truth, whatever it may be.

Anyway, back on subject.

I can't say or do anything to make you think anything different on this subject. and if I could, I wouldn't. Some things just happen. They have no explanation. People will seek answers. Is it better to provide what answer you have in hopes it will help, or to tell them to look elsewhere for answers? Many people feel they must have an answer, this can make things worse at times, but what if the person never gets told any answer at all?

[sn00zy]

I will explain something that separate Christianity from any other religion. When, according to the bible, Adam and Eve sinned, the world became broken.

I'm sorry but i cannot believe what you just wrote. Do you realize that Judaism, Islam and Christianity all share the same creation story? All include Adam and Eve and the original sin. The worst part is that the Adam and Eve story was originally from Torah, the Jewish holy book (or scroll as it sometimes is written on). Christians later adopted part of it and called it "the old testament". This has nothing to do with the separation or the "originality" of Christianity. Sorry to be rude, but if you are going to debate on a forum like this you need to get your facts straight before you start assuming things that just make you look uneducated and ignorant to other religions. Although i doubt that is the case, as you seem like an intelligent person.

[gnik]

I will explain something that separate Christianity from any other religion. When, according to the bible, Adam and Eve sinned, the world became broken.

I'm sorry but i cannot believe what you just wrote. Do you realize that Judaism, Islam and Christianity all share the same creation story? All include Adam and Eve and the original sin. The worst part is that the Adam and Eve story was originally from Torah, the Jewish holy book (or scroll as it sometimes is written on). Christians later adopted part of it and called it "the old testament". This has nothing to do with the separation or the "originality" of Christianity. Sorry to be rude, but if you are going to debate on a forum like this you need to get your facts straight before you start assuming things that just make you look uneducated and ignorant to other religions. Although i doubt that is the case, as you seem like an intelligent person.

Sorry. I tend to be forgetful about some details. From my understanding, Christianity came out of Judaism. Thus When referring to something that far back in the belief, they are the same religion in my mind. Islam says they came from Christianity, which came from Judaism, so the same applies.

I'm still somewhat new to this. So still working on getting all my thoughts down.

[sn00zy]

Better but still not all the way there. Islam didn't come from Christianity. If you ask any Muslim (or read the Qu'ran) they will say that Christians were doing it right when Jesus was around. But after his death they lost their way. Therefor, God told Mohammed his words of wisdom and had him right it down word for word. That became the Qu'ran. The relation is basically that Christians and Muslims share a few of the same prophets (including Jesus, though Islam denies that he was the son of God) and a few more things that i can't bring myself to write down. But most of all its an agreement that Jews are wrong. But now we are getting off topic. And i believe it's time that we let someone else share their thoughts so the two of us don't start running around in circles.

[ttruscott]

...
If anything it made me weaker. I have asked other Theists why God would do that, or a variation of that. And i get one out of two answers.

1. The give me an answer for themselves. An answer that would obviously only satisfy a Theist. "He is in a better place now" or "That's the way God created the world". That doesn't mean anything to an Atheist.

2. They simply shrug and say "I don't know"

This is why i will never be a Theist. The whole idea that there is an order of all things and that there is a reason for everything doesn't give me answers that will satisfy me.
...

well sn00zy,
1. How does one go about giving an answer NOT for oneself, in answer to a personal question?

It implies that the personal answer is too limited in application (only to myself, leaving you cold) and without a big enough scope to satisfy you.

Yet point 2. effectively denies that any whole idea about an order of things and the reason for things, a nice universal scope is also never going to satisfy you.

Therefore I am in a quandry right off as to why I should bother with an answer that is both personal to me and yet universal in scope?

If this is your pov, Why ask these questions on a Debating Christianity and Religion forum: perhaps to give yourself a platform to show us dummies how dumb we are to believe?

Or maybe you are looking for confirmation in your faith?

So, in response to the question: Why would GOD do that...ie destroy a person's life, I think I will hold my answer in abeyance, until I get a feel for why you reject the answers you have heard so many times already.

How is your self chosen assertion that 'my Theistic answer' will be fore-rejected as meaningless to an atheist and unsatisfying to your personally to convince me to answer at all?

Are not these pre-chosen rejections personal to you and your atheism, though broad in scope, without interest to a theist? Yet you ask me questions because I am a theist. Most confusing....

peace, Ted

[sn00zy]

ell sn00zy,
1. How does one go about giving an answer NOT for oneself, in answer to a personal question?

It implies that the personal answer is too limited in application (only to myself, leaving you cold) and without a big enough scope to satisfy you.

Yet point 2. effectively denies that any whole idea about an order of things and the reason for things, a nice universal scope is also never going to satisfy you.

Therefore I am in a quandry right off as to why I should bother with an answer that is both personal to me and yet universal in scope?

If this is your pov, Why ask these questions on a Debating Christianity and Religion forum: perhaps to give yourself a platform to show us dummies how dumb we are to believe?

Or maybe you are looking for confirmation in your faith?

So, in response to the question: Why would GOD do that...ie destroy a person's life, I think I will hold my answer in abeyance, until I get a feel for why you reject the answers you have heard so many times already.

How is your self chosen assertion that 'my Theistic answer' will be fore-rejected as meaningless to an atheist and unsatisfying to your personally to convince me to answer at all?

Are not these pre-chosen rejections personal to you and your atheism, though broad in scope, without interest to a theist? Yet you ask me questions because I am a theist. Most confusing....

You obviously took my post too personally. If you really don't understand why i am asking, then don't bother answering. That just means you the type of person of whom i do not what an answer from. Let me try to explain. The answer "God works in mysterious ways" will only satisfy a Theist because Theists will settle with faith alone. I am not asking for proof, but for reason or logic. And i can see none in this subject. Now, i was simply asking since Theist sometimes have interesting points when explaining Gods actions. But obviously this post confused you (for whatever reason) and you completely missed the point. You ask why i reject the answer i have heard so many times. Now, i will admit that is one of the dumbest questions i have heard. Let me make myself clear, I do not believe in God or any religion. And just because i get the same answer over and over again doesn't mean i will or should accept it. So do not give me an answer that will only apply to those who do (ie an answer that lacks reason or logic). If this task seems difficult or confusing to you, refrain from posting.


Here is the difference i see. Man X and man Y are in a room. Man X says "I am hungry, do we have any food?". Man Y replies with "Yes, here have an apple."
Man X replies with "Sorry, i do not like apples. Do we have anything else?" Man Y "Yes here, have an apple". As for what an apple is i have already explained.

[connermt]

First of i want to say hello to everyone, this is my first post on this forum. Secondly i would like to say that i consider myself an Atheist, so you now know where i stand in my following question:

So, i was reading a post that someone made on another forum. He was really down and he wasn't sure what to do. He had told his family that he was an Atheist. Long story short, they told him to get out (he was living with them at the time). Now, this in my eyes is obviously over reacting. Mostly because i don't really care if a person is a Muslim, Buddhist, Christian or an Atheist. If i enjoy their company i will accept them into my home, especially if it was my own child. But as Christians, can you really blame people for their personal feelings? This is how he feels, no matter what he says or what people tell him. This is HIS belief. What really caught my attention was that this could all have been avoided (if i was thinking like a theist). If God is omnipotent and omniscient. Doesn't that mean that while he was "creating" this person, he knew that he would grow to become and Atheist and could not be convinced otherwise, he also knew that his family would "banish" him from his own home.

It's the same logic (if you can even call it that) behind homosexuality. God creates homosexuals. Why? In his eyes, homosexuals are sinful. Why would he create sinful beings, and then send them to hell for their sins? To top it off, he knew all along that they were gay, and that there was no changing it. I'm sorry if any of you find this offensive, but isn't that unnecessary and cruel.? Eternal punishment isn't really pleasant. He is creating this people to send them to hell. He knows that they wont change their ways, he has the power to change them, to make them straight.

Same thing with the creation story. "If i make Eve, i know that she will eat the forbidden fruit and i will have to kick them out and then punish thousands of humans, for thousands of years because of this event. And i will act all shocked and offended when she does it too". Creating humans for the pure fact of sending them to hell doesn't sound very Godlike does it? Now say what you want, just refrain from giving me answers like: "God works in mysterious ways" or "You cannot judge God with human logic". What else am i supposed to judge him by? I am a human, i am only capable of thinking like a human. And if it was plain and simply like that, God does this for shits and giggles. Then i frankly do not want to spend eternity with him. Knowing all the pain and suffering he has caused, just because. Please show me your thoughts, Atheist and Theist alike.
Thanks.

You can't legitimately use logic when dealing with christianity. One reason is because the head of said religion is supernatural (at least assumed so by many, if not most, christians). Logic and the supernatural don't go hand-&-hand.
Another reason is because there's no facts to support christianity's suggestions outside of a book of stories written by men: a god became man? No facts. Two dead men rose to become alive again? No facts. The world flooded and animals were crammed into a boat? No facts.
Because there's no facts to support these types of claims (most, if not all, are supernatural happenings) logic won't work. Due to these "lack of facts" anyone can make up just about anything, base it on the bible, and have it not shown to be true.
God is said to be all knowing, yet doesn't "choose" to know how a person will 'end up' in the afterlife. Which contradicts the all knowing part. But, as I said, people can make up anything (in this case, saying god is all knowing but 'choosing' not to know all) when there's nothing to show it's not true.
The reality of it is that, at best, each individual has to come up with what's right or not, based on their own, individual interpertation of said religion. This cases people to act, well, stupid.
Kicking a child out of your house simply because they don't share a belief? Not only is that stupid and insensitive, it's also telling, to me, in the lack of faith of their parents' have in their own belief system - they were threatened. If not, their faith would have been so strong that their actions alone would have been enough to change their child's mind.
The common answer to the whole "why does god cause pain" is typically: "god doesn't cause it, it was caused because sin came into the world via Adam and Eve" (even though the bible does says god delights in causing pain/harm/sin). That is, IMO, nothing more than an excuse made for a deity that, if all powerful and all knowing, should be in control of all that is.
I wouldn't advise putting my weight into trying to understand christianity is you have an open mind or want proof as a means to believe. Don't be a slave to it. It's not worth it.
It's best to let the believers live their lives and interact with them as little as possible (if they are the sterotypical type) and enjoy what you have to offer and be a friend to your friends who need you when they are shunned by zealot believers.