Persecution; what it is, what it is not

[cnorman18]

A little clarity is in order here, I think.

-----

Having others openly disagree with one's views or beliefs is NOT persecution.

Being prevented from forcing others to follow one's own views or beliefs is NOT persecution.

Not having one's own views or beliefs held to be superior to, or held in greater esteem or respect than, those of others is NOT persecution.

Being prevented from falsifying or misrepresenting the arguments of those with whom one disagrees is NOT persecution.

Being held to the same standards of behavior as everyone else is NOT persecution.

Being criticized for contemptuously disparaging the views or beliefs of others is NOT persecution.

Having others refuse to accept, or even listen to, one's arguments for one's own views and beliefs is NOT persecution.

Being criticized for uttering threats or predictions of dire consequences, directed at those who do not accept or listen to one's views or beliefs, is NOT persecution.

On the other hand...

Preventing or attempting to prevent others from expressing views that differ from one’s own IS persecution.

Imposing or forcing one’s own views and beliefs upon others who do not share them IS persecution.

Insisting that one’s own views are superior to, or should be held in greater esteem or respect than, those of others IS persecution.

Falsifying or misrepresenting the views of others IS persecution.

Holding others to standards of behavior not expected of everyone IS persecution.

Contemptuously disparaging the beliefs and views of others because they differ from one’s own IS persecution.

Uttering threats, or making predictions of dire consequences, directed at others who do not share one’s own beliefs and views IS persecution.

-----

It's a pretty simple rule, really. If you don't want it done to you, you don't do it to others.

Edit: If anyone here thinks that these remarks are intended to address fundamentalists only -- that person would be wrong.

[Ionian_Tradition]

Insisting that one’s own views are superior to, or should be held in greater esteem or respect than, those of others IS persecution.

I should think that if one's own views are shown to be true (or at least greater in plausibility), they are deserving of greater esteem than that of views which are either patently false or lacking in evidential or argumentative support.

None the less, I completely agree that we must take care not to confuse discomfort with persecution.

[Waiting4evidence]

A little clarity is in order here, I think.

-----

Having others openly disagree with one's views or beliefs is NOT persecution.

Being prevented from forcing others to follow one's own views or beliefs is NOT persecution.

Not having one's own views or beliefs held to be superior to, or held in greater esteem or respect than, those of others is NOT persecution.

Being prevented from falsifying or misrepresenting the arguments of those with whom one disagrees is NOT persecution.

Being held to the same standards of behavior as everyone else is NOT persecution.

Being criticized for contemptuously disparaging the views or beliefs of others is NOT persecution.

Having others refuse to accept, or even listen to, one's arguments for one's own views and beliefs is NOT persecution.

Being criticized for uttering threats or predictions of dire consequences, directed at those who do not accept or listen to one's views or beliefs, is NOT persecution.

On the other hand...

Preventing or attempting to prevent others from expressing views that differ from one’s own IS persecution.

Imposing or forcing one’s own views and beliefs upon others who do not share them IS persecution.

Insisting that one’s own views are superior to, or should be held in greater esteem or respect than, those of others IS persecution.

Falsifying or misrepresenting the views of others IS persecution.

Holding others to standards of behavior not expected of everyone IS persecution.

Contemptuously disparaging the beliefs and views of others because they differ from one’s own IS persecution.

Uttering threats, or making predictions of dire consequences, directed at others who do not share one’s own beliefs and views IS persecution.

-----

It's a pretty simple rule, really. If you don't want it done to you, you don't do it to others.

Edit: If anyone here thinks that these remarks are intended to address fundamentalists only -- that person would be wrong.

I'm sorry. I agree with the general principle of what you're saying but not with many of the details.

You say: "Insisting that one’s own views are superior to, or should be held in greater esteem or respect than, those of others IS persecution."

I disagree. I am not persecuting the Ku Klux Klan by insisting that my views are superior to theirs.

You say: "Contemptuously disparaging the beliefs and views of others because they differ from one’s own IS persecution."

No. I'm sorry. That is bigotry and ignorance. But it's not persecution.

Even "Uttering threats, or making predictions of dire consequences, directed at others who do not share one’s own beliefs and views" is NOT persecution. It's harassment. It's rude. It's ignorant. It's foolish. But it's also well within our constitutional right to free speech.

Here's an example of persecution. Rounding up a bunch of people and burning them alive for their lack of belief in your imaginary friend. That's persecution.

Persecution is a big deal. I don't think you can call it persecution until there is a systematic effort to kill or at least hurt a group of people.

If you're making the point that many Christians play the victim and accuse atheists of persecuting them, then you're absolutely right that they're a bunch of crybabies.

Christians, here's a simple guide to determining if you're being persecuted:

If you are the overwhelming majority of the country, both in terms of population and in terms of political and financial influence, you're probably not being persecuted.

If your propaganda machine has hundreds of times the funds than the other side, you are probably not being persecuted

If you don't have to pay any taxes if you are a church, you're probably not being persecuted

If only members of your group can conceivably be elected President, you're not being persecuted

[cnorman18]

A little clarity is in order here, I think.

-----

Having others openly disagree with one's views or beliefs is NOT persecution.

Being prevented from forcing others to follow one's own views or beliefs is NOT persecution.

Not having one's own views or beliefs held to be superior to, or held in greater esteem or respect than, those of others is NOT persecution.

Being prevented from falsifying or misrepresenting the arguments of those with whom one disagrees is NOT persecution.

Being held to the same standards of behavior as everyone else is NOT persecution.

Being criticized for contemptuously disparaging the views or beliefs of others is NOT persecution.

Having others refuse to accept, or even listen to, one's arguments for one's own views and beliefs is NOT persecution.

Being criticized for uttering threats or predictions of dire consequences, directed at those who do not accept or listen to one's views or beliefs, is NOT persecution.

On the other hand...

Preventing or attempting to prevent others from expressing views that differ from one’s own IS persecution.

Imposing or forcing one’s own views and beliefs upon others who do not share them IS persecution.

Insisting that one’s own views are superior to, or should be held in greater esteem or respect than, those of others IS persecution.

Falsifying or misrepresenting the views of others IS persecution.

Holding others to standards of behavior not expected of everyone IS persecution.

Contemptuously disparaging the beliefs and views of others because they differ from one’s own IS persecution.

Uttering threats, or making predictions of dire consequences, directed at others who do not share one’s own beliefs and views IS persecution.

-----

It's a pretty simple rule, really. If you don't want it done to you, you don't do it to others.

Edit: If anyone here thinks that these remarks are intended to address fundamentalists only -- that person would be wrong.

I'm sorry. I agree with the general principle of what you're saying but not with many of the details.

You say: "Insisting that one’s own views are superior to, or should be held in greater esteem or respect than, those of others IS persecution."

I disagree. I am not persecuting the Ku Klux Klan by insisting that my views are superior to theirs.

You say: "Contemptuously disparaging the beliefs and views of others because they differ from one’s own IS persecution."

No. I'm sorry. That is bigotry and ignorance. But it's not persecution.

Even "Uttering threats, or making predictions of dire consequences, directed at others who do not share one’s own beliefs and views" is NOT persecution. It's harassment. It's rude. It's ignorant. It's foolish. But it's also well within our constitutional right to free speech.

Your points are all well taken, and I find that I agree. I seem to have overstated the case here and there.

Here's an example of persecution. Rounding up a bunch of people and burning them alive for their lack of belief in your imaginary friend. That's persecution.

Persecution is a big deal. I don't think you can call it persecution until there is a systematic effort to kill or at least hurt a group of people.

Now there, I disagree. For example, I think that barring a particular group from getting married (gays in the US) or from practicing their religion (circumcision in the Netherlands) amounts to persecution, though it doesn't rise to the level of murder or assault.

If you're making the point that many Christians play the victim and accuse atheists of persecuting them, then you're absolutely right that they're a bunch of crybabies.

I am, but I am also making the point that atheists occasionally do the same. Not being elected President (yet) is hardly persecution, but it is sometimes presented as evidence of same. I do not say that YOU are making that claim.

Christians, here's a simple guide to determining if you're being persecuted:

If you are the overwhelming majority of the country, both in terms of population and in terms of political and financial influence, you're probably not being persecuted.

If your propaganda machine has hundreds of times the funds than the other side, you are probably not being persecuted

If you don't have to pay any taxes if you are a church, you're probably not being persecuted

If only members of your group can conceivably be elected President, you're not being persecuted

Might be well to consider the inverse of all of those:

If one is in a tiny minority, is one necessarily being persecuted?

If your movement has little money or influence, is one being persecuted?

If one has to pay taxes, is one being persecuted?

If no member of one's group has yet been elected President, is one being persecuted?

I confidently expect you to agree that none of these constitute persecution; still, your criticisms above were right on the money, and as I said, I agree with them.

[Waiting4evidence]

A little clarity is in order here, I think.

-----

Having others openly disagree with one's views or beliefs is NOT persecution.

Being prevented from forcing others to follow one's own views or beliefs is NOT persecution.

Not having one's own views or beliefs held to be superior to, or held in greater esteem or respect than, those of others is NOT persecution.

Being prevented from falsifying or misrepresenting the arguments of those with whom one disagrees is NOT persecution.

Being held to the same standards of behavior as everyone else is NOT persecution.

Being criticized for contemptuously disparaging the views or beliefs of others is NOT persecution.

Having others refuse to accept, or even listen to, one's arguments for one's own views and beliefs is NOT persecution.

Being criticized for uttering threats or predictions of dire consequences, directed at those who do not accept or listen to one's views or beliefs, is NOT persecution.

On the other hand...

Preventing or attempting to prevent others from expressing views that differ from one’s own IS persecution.

Imposing or forcing one’s own views and beliefs upon others who do not share them IS persecution.

Insisting that one’s own views are superior to, or should be held in greater esteem or respect than, those of others IS persecution.

Falsifying or misrepresenting the views of others IS persecution.

Holding others to standards of behavior not expected of everyone IS persecution.

Contemptuously disparaging the beliefs and views of others because they differ from one’s own IS persecution.

Uttering threats, or making predictions of dire consequences, directed at others who do not share one’s own beliefs and views IS persecution.

-----

It's a pretty simple rule, really. If you don't want it done to you, you don't do it to others.

Edit: If anyone here thinks that these remarks are intended to address fundamentalists only -- that person would be wrong.

I'm sorry. I agree with the general principle of what you're saying but not with many of the details.

You say: "Insisting that one’s own views are superior to, or should be held in greater esteem or respect than, those of others IS persecution."

I disagree. I am not persecuting the Ku Klux Klan by insisting that my views are superior to theirs.

You say: "Contemptuously disparaging the beliefs and views of others because they differ from one’s own IS persecution."

No. I'm sorry. That is bigotry and ignorance. But it's not persecution.

Even "Uttering threats, or making predictions of dire consequences, directed at others who do not share one’s own beliefs and views" is NOT persecution. It's harassment. It's rude. It's ignorant. It's foolish. But it's also well within our constitutional right to free speech.

Your points are all well taken, and I find that I agree. I seem to have overstated the case here and there.

Here's an example of persecution. Rounding up a bunch of people and burning them alive for their lack of belief in your imaginary friend. That's persecution.

Persecution is a big deal. I don't think you can call it persecution until there is a systematic effort to kill or at least hurt a group of people.

Now there, I disagree. For example, I think that barring a particular group from getting married (gays in the US) or from practicing their religion (circumcision in the Netherlands) amounts to persecution, though it doesn't rise to the level of murder or assault.

Mmm. It's a close call. Banning a group from getting married is definitely discrimination, and bigotry, and unjust, and immoral, and all that. I dunno, I just find difficulty in associating the word "persecution" with a situation where your life is not in danger. But I am not invested in this definition, and could be persuaded that it is accurate to use the word persecution to mean "being discriminated against" in some cases.

When it comes to banning genital mutilation of infants, I violently disagree with the notion that it's anything but the sensible thing to do. If an adult wants to mutilate his own genitals with piercings or any other device, it's certainly up to him. But to do so to a baby, and to do irreversible damage to his body, decades before he has reached the age of consent is abuse of the highest order.

Is genital mutilation of female babies - whereby you remove the clitoris - acceptable to you? Do you consider it persecution to ban some religions from doing that in the US?

If you're making the point that many Christians play the victim and accuse atheists of persecuting them, then you're absolutely right that they're a bunch of crybabies.

I am, but I am also making the point that atheists occasionally do the same. Not being elected President (yet) is hardly persecution, but it is sometimes presented as evidence of same. I do not say that YOU are making that claim.

Agreed

Christians, here's a simple guide to determining if you're being persecuted:

If you are the overwhelming majority of the country, both in terms of population and in terms of political and financial influence, you're probably not being persecuted.

If your propaganda machine has hundreds of times the funds than the other side, you are probably not being persecuted

If you don't have to pay any taxes if you are a church, you're probably not being persecuted

If only members of your group can conceivably be elected President, you're not being persecuted

Might be well to consider the inverse of all of those:

If one is in a tiny minority, is one necessarily being persecuted?

If your movement has little money or influence, is one being persecuted?

If one has to pay taxes, is one being persecuted?

If no member of one's group has yet been elected President, is one being persecuted?

I confidently expect you to agree that none of these constitute persecution

Yup, we're on the same page.

[Moses Yoder]

Imposing or forcing one’s own views and beliefs upon others who do not share them IS persecution.

Here you have written a post in an attempt to force your view of what persecution is and is not onto others, saying that it is persecution to do so.

[cnorman18]

Imposing or forcing one’s own views and beliefs upon others who do not share them IS persecution.

Here you have written a post in an attempt to force your view of what persecution is and is not onto others, saying that it is persecution to do so.

Ah, yes. "Intolerance of intolerance is itself intolerance." IOW, "we must embrace and accept the bigots and bullies among us or else become bigots and bullies ourselves."

Phfft. I was stating my opinions, and nothing more.

[dianaiad]

A little clarity is in order here, I think.

-----

Having others openly disagree with one's views or beliefs is NOT persecution.

Being prevented from forcing others to follow one's own views or beliefs is NOT persecution.

Not having one's own views or beliefs held to be superior to, or held in greater esteem or respect than, those of others is NOT persecution.

Being prevented from falsifying or misrepresenting the arguments of those with whom one disagrees is NOT persecution.

Being held to the same standards of behavior as everyone else is NOT persecution.

Being criticized for contemptuously disparaging the views or beliefs of others is NOT persecution.

Having others refuse to accept, or even listen to, one's arguments for one's own views and beliefs is NOT persecution.

Being criticized for uttering threats or predictions of dire consequences, directed at those who do not accept or listen to one's views or beliefs, is NOT persecution.

On the other hand...

Preventing or attempting to prevent others from expressing views that differ from one’s own IS persecution.

Imposing or forcing one’s own views and beliefs upon others who do not share them IS persecution.

Insisting that one’s own views are superior to, or should be held in greater esteem or respect than, those of others IS persecution.

Falsifying or misrepresenting the views of others IS persecution.

Holding others to standards of behavior not expected of everyone IS persecution.

Contemptuously disparaging the beliefs and views of others because they differ from one’s own IS persecution.

Uttering threats, or making predictions of dire consequences, directed at others who do not share one’s own beliefs and views IS persecution.

-----

It's a pretty simple rule, really. If you don't want it done to you, you don't do it to others.

Edit: If anyone here thinks that these remarks are intended to address fundamentalists only -- that person would be wrong.

The above things are unpleasant. They are uncomfortable. They are irritating.

But they are not persecution, except for those items that include things done to people by force of law or...just force.

For instance: invading a community, kidnapping all the women and children, separating the children from their parents and placing those children in situations far more dangerous than the ones they were 'rescued' from....because the invaders didn't like the religion...that's persecution.

Making Jews wear yellow stars of David so that they will be easier to spot and put on trains to Dachau...that's persecution.

Putting people in jail because they are pacifists and won't submit to a draft...that's persecution.

Forcing churches to not only pay for, but actually dispense, products that are against their doctrine....that's persecution.

Blocking the entrance to religious meeting places so that worshipers cannot enter, while mocking their beliefs and sacred objects....yeah, that's persecution.

Sending an army after a religious group because the leaders don't like the religious beliefs of the target? that's persecution.

Beheading heretics. Crucifying believers. Stuff like that.

I have a rather narrower standard of what persecution is than do you, I think. Words alone don't quite reach it--unless they are very loud, overwhelm any other voices, and threaten later realized action.

[cnorman18]

A little clarity is in order here, I think.

-----

Having others openly disagree with one's views or beliefs is NOT persecution.

Being prevented from forcing others to follow one's own views or beliefs is NOT persecution.

Not having one's own views or beliefs held to be superior to, or held in greater esteem or respect than, those of others is NOT persecution.

Being prevented from falsifying or misrepresenting the arguments of those with whom one disagrees is NOT persecution.

Being held to the same standards of behavior as everyone else is NOT persecution.

Being criticized for contemptuously disparaging the views or beliefs of others is NOT persecution.

Having others refuse to accept, or even listen to, one's arguments for one's own views and beliefs is NOT persecution.

Being criticized for uttering threats or predictions of dire consequences, directed at those who do not accept or listen to one's views or beliefs, is NOT persecution.

On the other hand...

Preventing or attempting to prevent others from expressing views that differ from one’s own IS persecution.

Imposing or forcing one’s own views and beliefs upon others who do not share them IS persecution.

Insisting that one’s own views are superior to, or should be held in greater esteem or respect than, those of others IS persecution.

Falsifying or misrepresenting the views of others IS persecution.

Holding others to standards of behavior not expected of everyone IS persecution.

Contemptuously disparaging the beliefs and views of others because they differ from one’s own IS persecution.

Uttering threats, or making predictions of dire consequences, directed at others who do not share one’s own beliefs and views IS persecution.

-----

It's a pretty simple rule, really. If you don't want it done to you, you don't do it to others.

Edit: If anyone here thinks that these remarks are intended to address fundamentalists only -- that person would be wrong.

The above things are unpleasant. They are uncomfortable. They are irritating.

But they are not persecution, except for those items that include things done to people by force of law or...just force.

For instance: invading a community, kidnapping all the women and children, separating the children from their parents and placing those children in situations far more dangerous than the ones they were 'rescued' from....because the invaders didn't like the religion...that's persecution.

Making Jews wear yellow stars of David so that they will be easier to spot and put on trains to Dachau...that's persecution.

Putting people in jail because they are pacifists and won't submit to a draft...that's persecution.

Forcing churches to not only pay for, but actually dispense, products that are against their doctrine....that's persecution.

Blocking the entrance to religious meeting places so that worshipers cannot enter, while mocking their beliefs and sacred objects....yeah, that's persecution.

Sending an army after a religious group because the leaders don't like the religious beliefs of the target? that's persecution.

Beheading heretics. Crucifying believers. Stuff like that.

I have a rather narrower standard of what persecution is than do you, I think. Words alone don't quite reach it--unless they are very loud, overwhelm any other voices, and threaten later realized action.

Of course I have a different standard on what constitutes persecution. I'm a Jew. The Holocaust started with words -- articles and speeches and cartoons and the like that others shrugged off as merely unpleasant, uncomfortable and irritating. Misrepresenting the beliefs and actions of Jews, for instance; claims of Blood Libel, of worldwide conspiracy, of nefarious plotting, financial shenanigans, desecration of the Host, and so on. Just words....

Then it moved to boycotts and demonstrations and more speeches and cartoons and propaganda. Then to petty regulations and rules: preventing Jews from entering certain professions, holding office... Holding them to different standards. Baby steps, Increments. Fostering hatred and/or apathy on everyone's part.

And then came the Night of Broken Glass...

Do you fight persecution when it begins, or wait till it's too late? Those are your choices. History has proven it, over and over.

[dianaiad]

...I have a rather narrower standard of what persecution is than do you, I think. Words alone don't quite reach it--unless they are very loud, overwhelm any other voices, and threaten later realized action.

Of course I have a different standard on what constitutes persecution. I'm a Jew. The Holocaust started with words -- articles and speeches and cartoons and the like that others shrugged off as merely unpleasant, uncomfortable and irritating. Misrepresenting the beliefs and actions of Jews, for instance; claims of Blood Libel, of worldwide conspiracy, of nefarious plotting, financial shenanigans, desecration of the Host, and so on. Just words....

<snip to end>

I understand the idea. I'm a Mormon. Now what that means is....not a whole lot, except that we do understand the idea of persecution.

Not to the extent that Jews have, by any means, nor do I pretend to...but we do understand pogroms and diasporas. This is why I included the bolded and italicized words above.

Words without action are not persecution. Bigotry and stupidity? Oh, yes. However, it is only when the words prompt to action that they reach the level of persecution, IMO.

...and we fight words with words, misinformation with information, lies with truth, idiocy with patienc...ok, I don't deal with idiots patiently. IT's a flaw. I try, though.