Christianity and Apopleptics

[Jax Agnesson]

I've spent a while in the last year or two exploring Christian discussion boards, and I note that homosexuality seems to provoke some of the most passionate division and debate.
Some Christians are fine with it, up to and including welcoming gay marriage, gay clergy, very positively.
Some Christians seem to go blue in the face at the very thought of two men twiddling with each other's naughty bits..
Others take varying attitudes between the two extremes.

I'm not here inviting yet another debate about the rights and wrongs of homosexuality per se, but asking (and this is my question for debate) why, of all the 'sins' Christians are not entirely agreed about, homosexuality provokes such strong reaction?

[Clownboat]

From the OP:

why, of all the 'sins' Christians are not entirely agreed about, homosexuality provokes such strong reaction?

"Iiiiiicccccckkkkkk!"

And by, "Iiiiiicccccckkkkkk!", I mean a god I can't show exists agrees with me!

I'm here to tell ya, the god of two hot chicks hookin' up is totally cool with watching, or hoppin' in amongst, two hot chicks hookin' up!

Only that god doesn't have a fancy book declaring his righteousness.

I would like to join your email list and subscribe to your newsletter!

[Rkrause]

Personally, I think it all boils down to bigotry, ignorance, and personal disgust. Homophobic people are disgusted by male homosexual sex (does anyone else notice how little lesbianism is mentioned on these topics? I don't think the reason is religious) and use religion in an attempt to justify their personal hatred of gay men. They also tend to buy into the myths surrounding gay promiscuity, AIDS, the "gay agenda," etc., which further fans the flames of prejudice.

It's not about "sin," as plenty of other "sins" (remarriage after divorce, adultery, anger, unforgiveness) almost never get mentioned by fundamnetalists. Homosexuality is in a class of its own, and it has little to do with the Bible.

People know anger, unforgiveness and adultery are sins. No one goes around promoting or advocating for things like theft, murder, adultery, anger and unforgiveness. It seems like you are comparing homosexuality to these other sins. At least you got this sin in the right catergory or you know that it is sin.

Some sins are seen for what they are. Others, however, are subtle and spread like a cancer on society. Just because someone calls homosexuality sin doesn't mean they are afraid of men or homophobic. You are confusing when people fear sinning against God with man being afraid of men! The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and knoweldge

Care to show a quote from the bible that says 'Anger is a sin'?
how about forgiveness.

anger can lead to sin.
Ephesians 4:26
“In your anger do not sin� : Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry,

No forgiving someone is also a sin.
Matthew 18:34-35
New International Version (NIV)

34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.�

[Clownboat]

People know anger, unforgiveness and adultery are sins. No one goes around promoting or advocating for things like theft, murder, adultery, anger and unforgiveness. It seems like you are comparing homosexuality to these other sins.

The OP compares the passionate reaction of some Christians to homosexuality with their capacity to debate calmly and intelligently their differences about other matters where they disagree about whether a particular behaviour is a 'sin', or how serious a 'sin'..
One p1, I cite the example of a recent debate about abortion.
The abortion question was presented, and discussed, in tones which, although certainly passionate on both sides, (and rightly so IMO) nonetheless proceeded, for the most part, in a spirit of mutual respect, and with many arguments on both sides based on evidence.
The destruction of a potential human being would be a much more serious matter than one guy fiddling about with another guy's bits, don't you think?
So how come it gets so furious and ranty? Why does the debate about whether homosexuality is a sin or not so often reduce itself to groundless fulminations about 'It's wrong because Paul says it's wrong.' '..the downfall of civilizations' and other such foamy but unevidenced declarations.
What's the big deal?

Debating calmly or intensely is all subject to the circumstances evolving around any given event or issue. When abortion was in the process of being made legal, I wouldn't be surprise to see that all energy and focus was on that. I am sure I can make a case it was.

Abortion may or may not be sin. It depends on the circumstances, but homosexuality doesn't have any exception such as an abortion may be done to save the life of the mother.

Sin is anything that keeps people from God, or in the case of Christians, it breaks their fellowship with God and other Christians! All sin will result in eternal death; that is why we need Christ and need to repent of all sin!

Some people don't like this message, because they love darkness and sin more than God. Many live in a weird denial to justify their sin; so, they can have God in the process. It doesn't work. It is deception!

You defeated your own argument. There ARE homosexual Christians. "You" can say they are not true Christians, but who the heck are you to judge someones soul?

Due to the fact that there are homosexual Christians, what you call the sin of homosexuality obviously does not keep them from being a Christian. So according to your argument ("Sin is anything that keeps people from God") homosexuality cannot be a sin.

[Jax Agnesson]

Debating calmly or intensely is all subject to the circumstances evolving around any given event or issue. When abortion was in the process of being made legal, I wouldn't be surprise to see that all energy and focus was on that. I am sure I can make a case it was.

Dianaiad's recent arguments against homosexual marriage weren't hysterical or unreasoned, although she felt there is a very real threat to the integrity of her church, in view of upcoming changes in the law.
Her thread on abortion was conducted passionately but intelligently, despite the desperately serious nature of that issue.

Abortion may or may not be sin. It depends on the circumstances, but homosexuality doesn't have any exception such as an abortion may be done to save the life of the mother.

Sin is anything that keeps people from God, or in the case of Christians, it breaks their fellowship with God and other Christians! All sin will result in eternal death; that is why we need Christ and need to repent of all sin!

Some people don't like this message, because they love darkness and sin more than God. Many live in a weird denial to justify their sin; so, they can have God in the process. It doesn't work. It is deception!

Respect to you, Burning Light, for at least having a go at this question. Where are all your co-religionists today?
But still you have presented no evidence as to why homosexuality is such a big deal for some Christians. It's not a hot political issue here in the UK, for example, where gay marriage would be pretty much a shoo-in if the govt had time for the legislation this year. And this is (by UK standards) a conservative govt! But even here, when Christians (and Muslims) get into presenting their case against homosexuality, factual evidence is non-existent, and the vitriol and spite comes out before very many pages. Why is that? Where's the harm in homosexual love? Why, for example, do you think it 'keeps people from God'?

[Haven]

Jax, the fundamentalist mindset is not based upon reason or rationality, but a dogmatic commitment to the text of the Bible, which they view as the "verbally inspired, inerrant, infallible word of God." In other words, if the Bible says it, evangelicals see it as the final, unquestionable authority, and in their minds, it is not up for debate. If the Bible said walking on two legs was wrong, fundamentalists would hop on one foot without question.

For traditionalist Catholics, substitute "the Magisterium" for the Bible, but the same principle applies.

[Goat]

Personally, I think it all boils down to bigotry, ignorance, and personal disgust. Homophobic people are disgusted by male homosexual sex (does anyone else notice how little lesbianism is mentioned on these topics? I don't think the reason is religious) and use religion in an attempt to justify their personal hatred of gay men. They also tend to buy into the myths surrounding gay promiscuity, AIDS, the "gay agenda," etc., which further fans the flames of prejudice.

It's not about "sin," as plenty of other "sins" (remarriage after divorce, adultery, anger, unforgiveness) almost never get mentioned by fundamnetalists. Homosexuality is in a class of its own, and it has little to do with the Bible.

People know anger, unforgiveness and adultery are sins. No one goes around promoting or advocating for things like theft, murder, adultery, anger and unforgiveness. It seems like you are comparing homosexuality to these other sins. At least you got this sin in the right catergory or you know that it is sin.

Some sins are seen for what they are. Others, however, are subtle and spread like a cancer on society. Just because someone calls homosexuality sin doesn't mean they are afraid of men or homophobic. You are confusing when people fear sinning against God with man being afraid of men! The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and knoweldge

Care to show a quote from the bible that says 'Anger is a sin'?
how about forgiveness.

anger can lead to sin.
Ephesians 4:26
“In your anger do not sin� : Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry,

Well, it says that anger can lead someone to sin.. so it's best not to be angry. However, that is different about being angry being a sin.

No forgiving someone is also a sin.
Matthew 18:34-35
New International Version (NIV)

34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.�

Well, it does appear that when it comes to 'fellow christians, this might be true.. but it does seem ironic, that God, who is put forth as the paramount of forgiveness, does not forgive either, but tortures instead.

[Rkrause]

Jax, the fundamentalist mindset is not based upon reason or rationality, but a dogmatic commitment to the text of the Bible, which they view as the "verbally inspired, inerrant, infallible word of God." In other words, if the Bible says it, evangelicals see it as the final, unquestionable authority, and in their minds, it is not up for debate. If the Bible said walking on two legs was wrong, fundamentalists would hop on one foot without question.

For traditionalist Catholics, substitute "the Magisterium" for the Bible, but the same principle applies.

I am not a fundamentalist Christian but I would walk on all fours not hop.

[Rkrause]

Personally, I think it all boils down to bigotry, ignorance, and personal disgust. Homophobic people are disgusted by male homosexual sex (does anyone else notice how little lesbianism is mentioned on these topics? I don't think the reason is religious) and use religion in an attempt to justify their personal hatred of gay men. They also tend to buy into the myths surrounding gay promiscuity, AIDS, the "gay agenda," etc., which further fans the flames of prejudice.

It's not about "sin," as plenty of other "sins" (remarriage after divorce, adultery, anger, unforgiveness) almost never get mentioned by fundamnetalists. Homosexuality is in a class of its own, and it has little to do with the Bible.

People know anger, unforgiveness and adultery are sins. No one goes around promoting or advocating for things like theft, murder, adultery, anger and unforgiveness. It seems like you are comparing homosexuality to these other sins. At least you got this sin in the right catergory or you know that it is sin.

Some sins are seen for what they are. Others, however, are subtle and spread like a cancer on society. Just because someone calls homosexuality sin doesn't mean they are afraid of men or homophobic. You are confusing when people fear sinning against God with man being afraid of men! The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and knoweldge

Care to show a quote from the bible that says 'Anger is a sin'?
how about forgiveness.

anger can lead to sin.
Ephesians 4:26
“In your anger do not sin� : Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry,

Well, it says that anger can lead someone to sin.. so it's best not to be angry. However, that is different about being angry being a sin.

No forgiving someone is also a sin.
Matthew 18:34-35
New International Version (NIV)

34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.�

Well, it does appear that when it comes to 'fellow christians, this might be true.. but it does seem ironic, that God, who is put forth as the paramount of forgiveness, does not forgive either, but tortures instead.

Being angry is not a sin in itself but can quickly lead to sinful actions or harsh words etc...

My personal belief on Hell is that everyone will do what they want in Hell without Gods influence. So God isn't torturing anyone in Hell rather the people in Hell will create the world that God forshadows in the Bible. In other words I don't believe God created the environment in Hell rather people do. That is my own belief and I can't prove it through the Bible.

[Jax Agnesson]

Jax, the fundamentalist mindset is not based upon reason or rationality, but a dogmatic commitment to the text of the Bible, which they view as the "verbally inspired, inerrant, infallible word of God." In other words, if the Bible says it, evangelicals see it as the final, unquestionable authority, and in their minds, it is not up for debate. If the Bible said walking on two legs was wrong, fundamentalists would hop on one foot without question.

For traditionalist Catholics, substitute "the Magisterium" for the Bible, but the same principle applies.

I know, Haven. I do visit an evangelical site, (where the denizens are surprisingly friendly and polite to me) and you describe their position well. Whatever the Bible says is true, and that's that. But I am trying to get some of them to open up about why, of all the things they believe about Scripture, homosexuality is the one they most regularly get passionate about, without being able to present a single bit of evidence, or any supporting ethical argument, outside of "God says it's bad".
For example I recently joined in a discussion about shops and gas stations trading on a Sunday. There was a range of opinion, and the debate got a little heated, but after all, their God set this one in stone for them "Remember that thou keep Holy the Sabbath day!" Stiil the discussion remained within bounds, (or 'irenic' as they're fond of saying on that particular site) and included consideration of workers' rights, and consumerism, and so forth. And no-one started foaming at the mouth.
Mention homosexuality, on which there is barely a mention in either the OT or NT, and suddenly all hell breaks loose. What's the big deal?

[bluethread]

Mention homosexuality, on which there is barely a mention in either the OT or NT, and suddenly all hell breaks loose. What's the big deal?

Have you asked the people on those sites that question? On this site, I have noticed that issues related to homosexuality are primarily introduced by those who are in favor of homosexual activity. It is interesting that even though it is Haven who introduced the idea of anger and unforgiveness as sin, it is Rkrause who was required to defend it. The wording of the OP is rather interesting also.

Some Christians are fine with it, up to and including welcoming gay marriage, gay clergy, very positively.
Some Christians seem to go blue in the face at the very thought of two men twiddling with each other's naughty bits..
Others take varying attitudes between the two extremes.

Would the reaction have been different if it was worded as follows:

Some Christians are fine with two men twiddling with each other's naughty bits..
Some Christians seem to go blue in the face at the very thought of gay marriage and gay clergy.