Objective morality based in reality

cholland · Post by **cholland** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:51 pm

Autodidact wrote:I have an objective basis for my own morality. It's grounded in reality.

Honestly I don't have a topic for debate (maybe move to Random Ramblings). I just wanted to hear more explanation of what Autodidact means by these two statements.

Autodidact · Post by **Autodidact** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:56 pm

Thank you, cholland. It is a long discussion. Here's an abbreviated version to get us started.

The purpose of our lives is to be happy.
-Dalai Lama

If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.
-Dalai Lama

When I do good, I feel good, and when I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion.
-Abraham Lincoln

Like Aristotle, I see virtue as the science of happiness. Virtue means trying to live the best life, not auditioning for the afterlife.

I am NOT advocating hedonism, or doing whatever you feel like-ism. Some people somehow leap to this conclusion from my assertion that morality leads to happiness. Quite the contrary. What I am saying is that wisdom can help us learn how to be truly happy. And, due to our nature as human beings, being kind to other people makes us happy. Therefore, we should be kind to others, if we want to be happy.

cholland · Post by **cholland** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:13 pm

Autodidact wrote:Thank you, cholland. It is a long discussion. Here's an abbreviated version to get us started.

The purpose of our lives is to be happy.
-Dalai Lama

If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.
-Dalai Lama

When I do good, I feel good, and when I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion.
-Abraham Lincoln

Like Aristotle, I see virtue as the science of happiness. Virtue means trying to live the best life, not auditioning for the afterlife.

I am NOT advocating hedonism, or doing whatever you feel like-ism. Some people somehow leap to this conclusion from my assertion that morality leads to happiness. Quite the contrary. What I am saying is that wisdom can help us learn how to be truly happy. And, due to our nature as human beings, being kind to other people makes us happy. Therefore, we should be kind to others, if we want to be happy.

Ok, I'm sorry but that is not objective. That assumes that happiness is the chief end of man. Please verify this with evidence.

Autodidact · Post by **Autodidact** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:20 pm

cholland wrote:
Autodidact wrote:Thank you, cholland. It is a long discussion. Here's an abbreviated version to get us started.

The purpose of our lives is to be happy.
-Dalai Lama

If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.
-Dalai Lama

When I do good, I feel good, and when I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion.
-Abraham Lincoln

Like Aristotle, I see virtue as the science of happiness. Virtue means trying to live the best life, not auditioning for the afterlife.

I am NOT advocating hedonism, or doing whatever you feel like-ism. Some people somehow leap to this conclusion from my assertion that morality leads to happiness. Quite the contrary. What I am saying is that wisdom can help us learn how to be truly happy. And, due to our nature as human beings, being kind to other people makes us happy. Therefore, we should be kind to others, if we want to be happy.
Ok, I'm sorry but that is not objective. That assumes that happiness is the chief end of man. Please verify this with evidence.

It is an objective fact that people prefer being happy to being unhappy.

Again, as Aristotle observed, happiness is the final goal, beyond which no inquiry is possible. If I ask you why you do something, and continue to ask, why, why, why for each response, eventually you will be forced to say, because you will be happier.

Let's say a Christian follows a certain morality because the Bible commands it. Why does she do what the Bible commands? Because God will reward her with eternity in heaven. Why does she prefer to go to heaven, rather than Hell? Because she will be happier there. Beyond that no further inquiry is possible. Why does she prefer to be happy? Because that's how people are.

Autodidact · Post by **Autodidact** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:29 pm

YOu may be confusing objective with absolute. They are two different things. What I am saying is that we can base our moral decisions on objective facts, and this approach leads to personal and communal happiness.

cholland · Post by **cholland** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:41 pm

Autodidact wrote:YOu may be confusing objective with absolute. They are two different things. What I am saying is that we can base our moral decisions on objective facts, and this approach leads to personal and communal happiness.

objective: not influenced by personal beliefs or feelings

Zetesis Apistia · Post by **Zetesis Apistia** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:29 am

Autodidact wrote:YOu may be confusing objective with absolute. They are two different things. What I am saying is that we can base our moral decisions on objective facts, and this approach leads to personal and communal happiness.

So is it absolutely true that all people want to be happy? Do you even hear what you are saying?

Slopeshoulder · Post by **Slopeshoulder** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:08 pm

Zetesis Apistia wrote:
Autodidact wrote:YOu may be confusing objective with absolute. They are two different things. What I am saying is that we can base our moral decisions on objective facts, and this approach leads to personal and communal happiness.
So is it absolutely true that all people want to be happy? Do you even hear what you are saying?

Steppin' in to the a frackus:

Yes it is (excluding the mentally unwell), uncluding ascetics and renunciates.

Yes, I hear.

Christian ethics are happiness ethics, humanist insofar as they focus on flourishing, and even while they stand in contra-indication to the mainstream cncerns and false consciousness of the unregenerate. I learned most of that from a very distinguished christian ethicist, margeret farley, and always agreed.

Do you hear what you're asking?

Autodidact · Post by **Autodidact** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:51 pm

cholland wrote:
Autodidact wrote:YOu may be confusing objective with absolute. They are two different things. What I am saying is that we can base our moral decisions on objective facts, and this approach leads to personal and communal happiness.
objective: not influenced by personal beliefs or feelings

Right. It is an objective fact that being kind to other people makes [normal] human beings happy. There is more objective wisdom about how to live a virtuous and therefore happier life, but that is one basic one.

Autodidact · Post by **Autodidact** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:53 pm

Zetesis Apistia wrote:
Autodidact wrote:YOu may be confusing objective with absolute. They are two different things. What I am saying is that we can base our moral decisions on objective facts, and this approach leads to personal and communal happiness.
So is it absolutely true that all people want to be happy? Do you even hear what you are saying?

I didn't say it's absolutely true that all people want to be happy, and I don't know what "absolutely" adds to "true". I think it's objectively true that in general, people wish to be happy. Do you disagree? I think it's a fair generalization about human beings that we seek happiness and to avoid suffering. I don't really think that's controversial.

How about you, do you seek happiness and to avoid suffering?