How do Islam followers reconcile Christians they perceive as

[salvation2011]

Pretty much what the title says... If a Christian is someone who is in shirk (violation of commandments, right? and to worship Jesus or a death on a cross is in violation), but you know a Christian who is otherwise a good, nice person, how do you reconcile that? Can you reconcile that, or is that person, no matter how nice or good, essentially an infidel?

I am facing this right now as God has led me to read the bible (finally) and I am seeing that in order to be Christian one must believe in the fallacy of the trinity, worship a carved symbol (some made with a dead man on it), must drink blood of christ, believe that Jesus is God... all violations of the original 10 commandments. I had made friends at the church I was attending for 4 years, and many are nice people, but Im trying to reconcile what their fate is with thinking of "how can this be for this is a nice person?" Fooled into idolatry and sin... They were fooled not by Jesus himself, but seemingly by Peter and Saul/Paul decades after Jesus was on the cross.

Do you know Christians whom you like as people and yet, have conflict over them bc of their choice of worship? Thanks!

[Murad]

Pretty much what the title says... If a Christian is someone who is in shirk (violation of commandments, right? and to worship Jesus or a death on a cross is in violation), but you know a Christian who is otherwise a good, nice person, how do you reconcile that? Can you reconcile that, or is that person, no matter how nice or good, essentially an infidel?

Trinitarianism is pseudo-monotheism, and anything that is not absolute monotheism is Shirk, which is the only unforgivable sin (if a person dies in the state of shirk). Christians "As a people" are seen good:

"...and nearest among them in love to the believers(muslims) will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant"
(Quran 5:82)

However the Quran warns:

"If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course, but many of them follow a course that is evil"
(Quran 5:66)

"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs"
(Quran 4:171)

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is but a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them; how they are deluded away from the Truth! They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of God, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary. Yet they were commanded to worship but One God: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him! (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)" (Quran 9:30-31)

I am facing this right now as God has led me to read the bible (finally) and I am seeing that in order to be Christian one must believe in the fallacy of the trinity, worship a carved symbol (some made with a dead man on it), must drink blood of christ, believe that Jesus is God... all violations of the original 10 commandments. I had made friends at the church I was attending for 4 years, and many are nice people, but Im trying to reconcile what their fate is with thinking of "how can this be for this is a nice person?" Fooled into idolatry and sin... They were fooled not by Jesus himself, but seemingly by Peter and Saul/Paul decades after Jesus was on the cross.

Do you know Christians whom you like as people and yet, have conflict over them bc of their choice of worship? Thanks!

The Quran in Islam is the restoration of pure monotheism & theological truth & it is the complete fulfillment of God's law to man:

This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favor upon you, and have chosen Islm as your religion.
(Quran 5:3)

Ofcourse Islam has theological conflicts with polytheists & pseudo monotheists; but the choice of free will is made very clear:

Whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve,'
[Quran, 18:29]

'There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is distinct from error,'
[Quran, 2:256]

[salvation2011]

Trinitarianism is pseudo-monotheism, and anything that is not absolute monotheism is Shirk, which is the only unforgivable sin (if a person dies in the state of shirk). Christians "As a people" are seen good:

How are they seen as good if they believe in the fallacy?

"...and nearest among them in love to the believers(muslims) will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant"
(Quran 5:82)

Although I know some nice Christians, I also know most of them to be arrogant in their belief that they are right about Jesus being God and all who dont are wrong.

However the Quran warns:

"If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course, but many of them follow a course that is evil"
(Quran 5:66)

Which ones are following the right course and which ones are following evil? Is this an arrogance commentary?

"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs"
(Quran 4:171)

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is but a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them; how they are deluded away from the Truth! They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of God, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary. Yet they were commanded to worship but One God: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him! (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)" (Quran 9:30-31)
[/quote]

I thought Jews believe in one God.

Of course Islam has theological conflicts with polytheists & pseudo monotheists; but the choice of free will is made very clear:

Whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve,'
[Quran, 18:29]

'There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is distinct from error,'
[Quran, 2:256]

[/quote]

These last 2 were extremely helpful and along the lines of how I think, I just had not applied them to my Christian friends... but they are applicable. Although I am not Muslim, I seem to share many beliefs with your religion. I definitely share the same reverence to the One God. He has guided and protected me throughout my life... but alas, I am also a slow learner and miss things only to see them years later. He sends me guidance and warnings in dreams and on the spot "insights" as I call them to keep me from making huge errors. I have no other way of explaining how I went to church for 4 years and never once worshiped Jesus, the cross or got baptised in Jesus' name (Baptist church!). When I prayed to Him about baptism He told me flat out NO! and told me to read Matthew and turn over my idols. It was reading Matthew and seeing that there were no prophecies fulfilled (as are written in Matthew that is) and Jesus never said "worship me" that I realized Jesus came for a different purpose than Christians believe. I dont know if I write off Judaism (all of Judaism that is). I think there are a select few that still follow the Law, but many do so in vain while pursuing pleasure and worldy gains. Many more in Christianity and Judaism believe they are good Christians and Jews, and yet are not! Its unbelievable, the loopholes people find and talk themselves into as ok... I can sin bc as long as I believe Jesus died on the cross for me, its covered... thanks! Or even some Jews... write sin off bc of the day of atonement... but then they work that day on their blackberries (even though they fast... whats the point of fasting if not going into deep prayer with God?) Pleeeez, wake up people! EIther follow or dont... its the ones who claim to and yet arent that make me boil with frustration.

Your insight has been most helpful, and I will probably inquire more:)

[Murad]

Trinitarianism is pseudo-monotheism, and anything that is not absolute monotheism is Shirk, which is the only unforgivable sin (if a person dies in the state of shirk). Christians "As a people" are seen good:

How are they seen as good if they believe in the fallacy?

They are seen positively as a "people", when you were a Christian do you consider yourself as being a "Bad Person"? Obviously not, you just had the wrong beliefs.

"...and nearest among them in love to the believers(muslims) will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant"
(Quran 5:82)

Although I know some nice Christians, I also know most of them to be arrogant in their belief that they are right about Jesus being God and all who dont are wrong.

They might seem arrogant from your perspective, but to muslims God is the author of the Quran & to him, Christians "as a people" are not "bad", just "lost".

However the Quran warns:

"If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course, but many of them follow a course that is evil"
(Quran 5:66)

Which ones are following the right course and which ones are following evil? Is this an arrogance commentary?

Most likely early Unitarian Christians who still followed the commandments; and as you can see, the verse itself is vague: "from among them a party on the right course", a course to what? This can have numerous meanings, it is definitely not an indication that there is a "Correct" sect of Christianity.

"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs"
(Quran 4:171)

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is but a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them; how they are deluded away from the Truth! They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of God, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary. Yet they were commanded to worship but One God: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him! (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)" (Quran 9:30-31)

I thought Jews believe in one God.

Islam is the strictest form of monotheism within the 3 Abrahamic Religions, see ---Tawhid---. The word "Son" gained negative connotations over the centuries & this is clearly expressed by Christians who believe that Jesus is the literal "Son"; thus the Quran forbids any sense of singling out a person and calling him "Son of God". Ofcourse Judaism does not use the idiom "Son of God" in the same way Christians do, but it is still seen as minor blasphemy:

In the name of Allah most gracious, most merciful

And they say: (Allah) most gracious has begotten a son!"
Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
At it the skies are ready to burst,
And the earth to split asunder,
And the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
That they should invoke a son for (Allah) most gracious
For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) most gracious
That he should beget a son
(Quran 19:88-92 )

[salvation2011]

I do understand. Lost, not bad. Yes.

I just read a passage on a site with Quaran passages and believe that Islam is the missing piece I have had dreams about most of my life. Since I was little and my mom would take me to Easter Services, I just knew from my "gut" and from dreams and other events Im not disclosing, that there was a grave misconception about Jesus and his purpose. I had a feeling he did not die on that cross, and knew it as if it was truth, but had no way of explaining it as fact.

In church I would always want to shout, "wake up people, this is not the truth!" When I went to synagogue with my dad's family I didnt understand a word, and I thought they were more interested in who was wearing what, and being about fashion and jewelry, and status (may be limited to the particular synagogue and not all, but not sure). As an adult in church these last years, I have seen those who do good deeds AND NEED to be recognized for them... not just doing them to do good. And prayer is so public and negatively focused... "please pray for me bc my job is on the line..." "please pray for my family bc my husband has cancer." I just never understood why the prayers were always so public and asking for things they want instead of privately revealing to God what was in one's own heart. Maybe its just me, but I dont believe in asking for a job to come along as a prayer, its a personal desire from this world. I know that whatever is intended for me, will present itself, when it is meant by God. My prayers arent for things, they are for internal guidance and peace/patience when Im overwhelmed (good or bad) by things in my heart, my soul always by myself and always from humility that I know nothing. I usually start out with an apology as to my ignorance... "I know your up there probably shaking your head again, but here I am again...thank you for being so patient with me as I struggle...." Or when I prayed about baptism... "what do you mean for me to do in terms of baptism?"

I had thoughts of somehow starting a religion based on knowing Jesus as a great messenger, reading his words, but that he should not be worshiped... it just seemed everyone I knew was either dead set into believing he was the ransom for sins or just a rabbi, or not interested either way. I had not read the bible at the time either, all this was simply based on "intuitions." (I dont know what else to call it) I knew nothing of Islam, nor its existence until later adulthood. Now, as I am more advanced in age, I am piecing everything together.

I read my father's Torah and find small but significant differences between it and Christian bible Old Testament... especially in Isaiah (which Christians herald as the announcement of Jesus as the suffering servant who was a ransom for sins... I think a book could be written about this misunderstanding... probably already has been written).

What says Islam about people who are not a member of any formal religion yet believe as I do?

[Murad]

What says Islam about people who are not a member of any formal religion yet believe as I do?

...any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
(Quran 2:62)

But to be truly guided the Quran further elaborates:

It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;-
(Quran 62:2)

Accepting Muhammad as the "Seal of the Prophethood" is an article of faith in Islam.

[Meow Mix]

Trinitarianism is pseudo-monotheism, and anything that is not absolute monotheism is Shirk, which is the only unforgivable sin (if a person dies in the state of shirk).

What happens if someone dies in Shirk? Is being unsure of whether any god exists or not Shirk?

Is it just to punish someone, especially eternally (if that's the case), for accidently coming to the wrong conclusion?

[Murad]

Trinitarianism is pseudo-monotheism, and anything that is not absolute monotheism is Shirk, which is the only unforgivable sin (if a person dies in the state of shirk).

What happens if someone dies in Shirk?

Allah (arabic for "God"), by definition is the most just:

"Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good, see it! And anyone who has done an atom's weight of evil, shall see it."
(Noble Verses 99:7-8)

If someone dies in the state of Shirk (after they've been warned), then that person will have the unforgivable sin weighed against him on the last hour. Islamic Scholars agree that this means the person will most likely have to serve some time in hell.

The most important thing to note here is:

Verily We have sent thee in truth, as a bearer of glad tidings, and as a warner: and there never was a people, without a warner having lived among them.
(Quran 35:24)

Is being unsure of whether any god exists or not Shirk?

Technically no, there was a non-theist who approached prophet Muhammad(pbuh), at this moment it is believed that this verse was revealed:

And they say, There is not but our worldly life; we die and live and nothing destroys us except time. And they have of that no knowledge; they are only assuming. And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences, their argument is only that they say, Bring [back] our forefathers, if you should be truthful. Say, God causes you to live, then causes you to die; then He will assemble you for the Day of Resurrection, about which there is no doubt, but most of the people do not know. (Quran, 45:24-26)

It does not mention anything about Shirk, so i don't believe atheists are comitting shirk; however some scholars differ.

Is it just to punish someone, especially eternally (if that's the case), for accidently coming to the wrong conclusion?

The concept of "infiniteness" or "eternality" belongs solely to Allah; so heaven & hell are finite. "Eternity in hell" or "Eternity in paradise" are metaphorical statements.

No, in Islamic Theology Allah does not punish for honest ignorance. If you do not know, you do not know.

[Kuan]

Murad, do you mind if i ask some questions?

You explained shirk earlier, being that following anything but monotheism is an unforgivable sin. (Only unforgivable sin?)

How do you view other christian denominations who do not accept the trinity, as my question would imply, im most interested in how you would view mormons (myself being one.)

[Meow Mix]

If Hell isn't eternal, do those punished in Hell eventually see Paradise if they see the error of their ways and genuinely atone?

If Heaven isn't eternal, what happens after a long time to those who are in it?



Thank you for your responses. Out of all the Abrahamic faiths -- at least, of what I know about them, which overall isn't much in terms of the specific ideologies and histories -- I think I like Islam the best. I mean no disrespect when I say that it has some of the worst followers (in the modern age -- seems it was reversed in the Islamic Golden Age while Christians were slaughtering everyone including one another) but it also has some of the best ones. (Saladin comes to mind)

I'd be okay with wearing hijab as long as no one forced me, in fact I like the aesthetics of it on all the Muslims that live around here (it's a college town and there's a lot).

I guess what really keeps me from it is that I doubt a god exists and therefore also doubt anyone was really a prophet. I disagree with some of the rules (I love pork, and think alcohol is OK when done safely), I'd have a really hard time waking up and attending to prayers all the time, and I doubt that a god would really care that much about prayer.

Aside from my personal doubts, though, I think of the Abrahamic faiths Islam gets the most "right." I still think it gets a lot wrong, though. Too much wrong for me to consider conversion. But less so than the others.