Jesus and God, questions for Christians...

[salvation2011]

I was having a debate with my husband yesterday about Jesus and God. He said that Jesus is God and HE came and changed the original laws set forth by God with Moses. Im confused for a couple reasons about this. I thought that Christians do believe in the 10 commandments and in Jesus as the trinity who summed up the 10 commandments in 2 easy to remember formats... Love God (first set of commands) and Love Others (the remaining commands)... I did not realize that Jesus came and changed/abolished the original commandments. Is my husband's belief in need of correction, or is it correct that Christians believe this? Second thing, and this may be bc I think its idolatrous to worship Jesus (as I believe trinity is a manmade not Jesus made concept... I dont see where he instructed people to worship him, only listen to his words and acknowledge him... big difference in my book)... so can someone please point me to the passage or passages from the words of Jesus that show Jesus instructing followers to worship anyone other than God the Father?

Thanks! Much appreciated!

[SolidSnake]

Many Christians believe different things... but on the issue you raise as far as I understand it from the debates I have had with Christians on such things as Leviticus, Jesus fulfilled the laws of Moses by being crucified.

The laws put forth by Moses were not able to be fulfilled by man as he is imperfect and will always end up failing them. As Jesus was the perfect man and was here to absolve us of our sins his death and resurection closed the chapter on those laws and set in place the two new basic foundations of Christianity; love your god and love your neighbour.

I hope I've got that right and if I havn't someone with more knowledge please correct me.

[salvation2011]

Many Christians believe different things... but on the issue you raise as far as I understand it from the debates I have had with Christians on such things as Leviticus, Jesus fulfilled the laws of Moses by being crucified.

The laws put forth by Moses were not able to be fulfilled by man as he is imperfect and will always end up failing them. As Jesus was the perfect man and was here to absolve us of our sins his death and resurection closed the chapter on those laws and set in place the two new basic foundations of Christianity; love your god and love your neighbour.

I hope I've got that right and if I havn't someone with more knowledge please correct me.

Thanks! Yesterday I did some reading offline and found passage in Matthew 5 stating do not think I have come to abolish the law and prophets but to fulfill... not one letter shall be stricken and even if the least of these commands is not followed it will be worse for you in heaven, but the goal is to follow the laws better than the pharisees (we know how they were wicked in "following" the laws of Moses but defiling them at the same time... why Jesus called them hippocrites), so that you shall enter the kingdom. That is a paraphrase, but I flipped right to it last night when I was reading.

So from your post Im gathering that Christians take this to mean that at the time Jesus died on the cross it was all fulfilled and that means you dont have to follow the original 10 commandments.
Ok. So, let it stand with my husband. Thank you:)

[Adstar]

I was having a debate with my husband yesterday about Jesus and God. He said that Jesus is God and HE came and changed the original laws set forth by God with Moses. Im confused for a couple reasons about this. I thought that Christians do believe in the 10 commandments and in Jesus as the trinity who summed up the 10 commandments in 2 easy to remember formats... Love God (first set of commands) and Love Others (the remaining commands)... I did not realize that Jesus came and changed/abolished the original commandments. Is my husband's belief in need of correction, or is it correct that Christians believe this?

Ok i will give you one of the 10 commandments.

"You shall not commit adultery." Now this is one of the 10 commandments but it is not the whole law pertaining to Adultery. Linked to and part of that law was the punishment that was to be carried out to those who where found guilty of adultery. That punishment was stoning to death.

So the Law was you shall not commit adultery and if you do, you are subject to the death penalty by stoning. Because the penalty was part of the Law. Not only where they told not to commit adultery they where ordered under the same law to execute adulterers by stoning.

You will find No true Christian proclaiming that it is ok to commit adultery. But you will find no true Christian seeking to carry out the death penalty by stoning an adulterer.

So the Law remains "You shall not commit adultery." and as a Christian i say it is good and proper. Adultery is wrong and God is good to say "You shall not commit adultery."

But OT law was not just "You shall not commit adultery." it was "You shall not commit adultery." + if you break this Law you shall be put to death. So to be absolutely correct the OT law that includes both action and penalty has been removed. Because the curse of that law "death" has been removed by Jesus without taking away the Spirit of the Law. You shall not commit adultery.

Do you understand what i am saying?

Deuteronomy 27
26 ‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’�

Galatians 3
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.�

Jesus through His atoning work has removed from us the curse of the Law. But the law is still good.

So Jesus abolished the OT law because that Law included both the directive and the penalty for breaking that directive.

But Jesus confirmed the directive of the Law. That is was Good.

Second thing, and this may be bc I think its idolatrous to worship Jesus (as I believe trinity is a manmade not Jesus made concept...

Yes a lot of people think like that. Because they can only see Jesus as a mere man.

I dont see where he instructed people to worship him, only listen to his words and acknowledge him... big difference in my book)...

Matthew 28
8 So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word.9 And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!� So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell My brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see Me.�

What was the reaction of Jesus to being worshiped? Did he pull them up and say do not worship me? No. He reassured them.

John 20
24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.�
So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.�
26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!� 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.�
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!�
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.�

Thomas declared Jesus to be not just his Lord But his God. Did Jesus react with shock? or declare Thomas guilty of blasphemy. No He said, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.� I am one of the blessed ones for i am glad to say Jesus is My Lord and My God.

Revelation 1
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,� and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.�
12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Who is the Alpha and Omega? Who is the First and the Last? Why the God of Abraham that’s who. Now when did God die? When was God dead?

He died on the cross in Jerusalem and was raised from the grave 3 days later.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days






so can someone please point me to the passage or passages from the words of Jesus that show Jesus instructing followers to worship anyone other than God the Father?

Thanks! Much appreciated!

[bjs]

I was having a debate with my husband yesterday about Jesus and God. He said that Jesus is God and HE came and changed the original laws set forth by God with Moses. Im confused for a couple reasons about this. I thought that Christians do believe in the 10 commandments and in Jesus as the trinity who summed up the 10 commandments in 2 easy to remember formats... Love God (first set of commands) and Love Others (the remaining commands)... I did not realize that Jesus came and changed/abolished the original commandments. Is my husband's belief in need of correction, or is it correct that Christians believe this?

Christian theology is not that Jesus abolished the law, but that he fulfilled it.

I take this to mean that Jesus brought us the full meaning of the law. This affects different parts of the law in different ways.

For instance, Christians no longer make animal sacrifices because Jesus fulfilled this by his death and resurrection. Those laws were only a shadow – now that the reality has come we have no need of shadows.

On the other had in some case the fulfillment of the law means that the law is taken a step farther. The law “do not commit adultery� is fulfilled in even greater faithfulness to your husband/wife. Jesus said that if we look at someone with lust then we have already committed adultery in our hearts. The law is not abolished – it is strengthened.

The commands to love God first and love your neighbor as yourself are a summation of the law, not a replacement for the law. As Jesus said in Matthew 22:40, “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Second thing, and this may be bc I think its idolatrous to worship Jesus (as I believe trinity is a manmade not Jesus made concept... I dont see where he instructed people to worship him, only listen to his words and acknowledge him... big difference in my book)... so can someone please point me to the passage or passages from the words of Jesus that show Jesus instructing followers to worship anyone other than God the Father?

Matthew 28:9
Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

Matthew 28:17
When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.

Luke 24:52
Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.

John 9:37-38
Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you." Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.

[salvation2011]

I am thankful for the passage references even though I still dont see where Jesus ever said "worship me" and the gospels were written like 70 yrs after he was gone... that is a long time and bias leads people to say what they want based on their beliefs and present to others in a way to get them to believe. I am choosing to allow my husband to believe what he wishes while I believe what I wish... we are to not stand in the way of others choices and not encourage them into any either.

[Murad]

But OT law was not just "You shall not commit adultery." it was "You shall not commit adultery." + if you break this Law you shall be put to death. So to be absolutely correct the OT law that includes both action and penalty has been removed. Because the curse of that law "death" has been removed by Jesus without taking away the Spirit of the Law. You shall not commit adultery.

Do you understand what i am saying?

Deuteronomy 27
26 ‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’�

Adstar i told you before that is a deceptive Christian translation:

The REAL & HONEST translation is:

Accursed is one who will not uphold the words of this Torah, to perform them. And the entire people shall say, Amen.
(Deuteronomy 27:26)

Please, show me where i can find the phrase: "ALL the words of this law" in the Hebrew text of Deuteronomy 27:26, please show me.

The God of Paul is clearly not the God of the OT:

"Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.
(Ezekiel 18:30)

God is not a party pooper, he did not deceive the Jews for thousands of years just to suddenly appear on earth & kill himself to not get angry at his own creation.

So Jesus abolished the OT law because that Law included both the directive and the penalty for breaking that directive.

Jesus was was a law abiding Jew & was circumcised, something Paul called:

Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh.
(Philippians 3:2)

Was the circumciser of Jesus a "Dog" ?
Did a "Dog" circumcise Jesus?

What was the reaction of Jesus to being worshiped? Did he pull them up and say do not worship me? No. He reassured them.

Jesus also said:

"I do not accept praise from men,
(John 5:41)

[salvation2011]

I was having a debate with my husband yesterday about Jesus and God. He said that Jesus is God and HE came and changed the original laws set forth by God with Moses. Im confused for a couple reasons about this. I thought that Christians do believe in the 10 commandments and in Jesus as the trinity who summed up the 10 commandments in 2 easy to remember formats... Love God (first set of commands) and Love Others (the remaining commands)... I did not realize that Jesus came and changed/abolished the original commandments. Is my husband's belief in need of correction, or is it correct that Christians believe this?

Ok i will give you one of the 10 commandments.

"You shall not commit adultery." Now this is one of the 10 commandments but it is not the whole law pertaining to Adultery. Linked to and part of that law was the punishment that was to be carried out to those who where found guilty of adultery. That punishment was stoning to death.

So the Law was you shall not commit adultery and if you do, you are subject to the death penalty by stoning. Because the penalty was part of the Law. Not only where they told not to commit adultery they where ordered under the same law to execute adulterers by stoning.

You will find No true Christian proclaiming that it is ok to commit adultery. But you will find no true Christian seeking to carry out the death penalty by stoning an adulterer.

So the Law remains "You shall not commit adultery." and as a Christian i say it is good and proper. Adultery is wrong and God is good to say "You shall not commit adultery."

But OT law was not just "You shall not commit adultery." it was "You shall not commit adultery." + if you break this Law you shall be put to death. So to be absolutely correct the OT law that includes both action and penalty has been removed. Because the curse of that law "death" has been removed by Jesus without taking away the Spirit of the Law. You shall not commit adultery.

Do you understand what i am saying?

Deuteronomy 27
26 ‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’�

Galatians 3
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.�

Jesus through His atoning work has removed from us the curse of the Law. But the law is still good.

So Jesus abolished the OT law because that Law included both the directive and the penalty for breaking that directive.

But Jesus confirmed the directive of the Law. That is was Good.

Second thing, and this may be bc I think its idolatrous to worship Jesus (as I believe trinity is a manmade not Jesus made concept...

Yes a lot of people think like that. Because they can only see Jesus as a mere man.

I dont see where he instructed people to worship him, only listen to his words and acknowledge him... big difference in my book)...

Matthew 28
8 So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word.9 And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!� So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell My brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see Me.�

What was the reaction of Jesus to being worshiped? Did he pull them up and say do not worship me? No. He reassured them.

John 20
24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.�
So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.�
26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!� 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.�
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!�
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.�

Thomas declared Jesus to be not just his Lord But his God. Did Jesus react with shock? or declare Thomas guilty of blasphemy. No He said, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.� I am one of the blessed ones for i am glad to say Jesus is My Lord and My God.

Revelation 1
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,� and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.�
12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Who is the Alpha and Omega? Who is the First and the Last? Why the God of Abraham that’s who. Now when did God die? When was God dead?

He died on the cross in Jerusalem and was raised from the grave 3 days later.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Hmmm, my bibles do not have penalties written in Exodus 20... where the 10 commandments are written. Penalties are explained later... who knows if those were from God or from a prophet who saw the people not following the original 10 on the tablets?

So to you, God died.... and to you "the Lamb" is Jesus. The only thing I can say, bc it wont sway your belief, and that is not my intention anyway, is go reread Revelations as it is the "Spirit of Truth" mentioned in John 16:13... (which Christianity believes was pentecost). The Spirit of Truth does reveal the entire "plan" of/for man... if you believe it as truth. Here comes that human perception dilemma again... each person will see differently what is written based on his/her belief system. So, who goes where and who is what is a constant debate for "end times" discussions. Who is right? Is anyone right? What authority do you have to claim yourself as right?

[salvation2011]

Revelation 1
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,� and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.�
12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Who is the Alpha and Omega? Who is the First and the Last? Why the God of Abraham that’s who. Now when did God die? When was God dead?

If you back up a little, Rev 1:5 "and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth". The Beast of the Sea was given authority of the kings of the earth. The Beast of the Earth (with 2 horns) got people to follow/worship the Beast of the Sea (Peter and Paul). I know, you will think Im going to hell bc in your eyes I just blasphemed. Thank God, in my eyes, I havent.

Rev 2:7 continues "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." This is the Spirit of Truth ref to in John 16... pentecost was not. But again, that is simply my take on it, and it is different from yours and that is the structure of human nature, we each see what we each see.

[Adstar]

I was having a debate with my husband yesterday about Jesus and God. He said that Jesus is God and HE came and changed the original laws set forth by God with Moses. Im confused for a couple reasons about this. I thought that Christians do believe in the 10 commandments and in Jesus as the trinity who summed up the 10 commandments in 2 easy to remember formats... Love God (first set of commands) and Love Others (the remaining commands)... I did not realize that Jesus came and changed/abolished the original commandments. Is my husband's belief in need of correction, or is it correct that Christians believe this?

Ok i will give you one of the 10 commandments.

"You shall not commit adultery." Now this is one of the 10 commandments but it is not the whole law pertaining to Adultery. Linked to and part of that law was the punishment that was to be carried out to those who where found guilty of adultery. That punishment was stoning to death.

So the Law was you shall not commit adultery and if you do, you are subject to the death penalty by stoning. Because the penalty was part of the Law. Not only where they told not to commit adultery they where ordered under the same law to execute adulterers by stoning.

You will find No true Christian proclaiming that it is ok to commit adultery. But you will find no true Christian seeking to carry out the death penalty by stoning an adulterer.

So the Law remains "You shall not commit adultery." and as a Christian i say it is good and proper. Adultery is wrong and God is good to say "You shall not commit adultery."

But OT law was not just "You shall not commit adultery." it was "You shall not commit adultery." + if you break this Law you shall be put to death. So to be absolutely correct the OT law that includes both action and penalty has been removed. Because the curse of that law "death" has been removed by Jesus without taking away the Spirit of the Law. You shall not commit adultery.

Do you understand what i am saying?

Deuteronomy 27
26 ‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’�

Galatians 3
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.�

Jesus through His atoning work has removed from us the curse of the Law. But the law is still good.

So Jesus abolished the OT law because that Law included both the directive and the penalty for breaking that directive.

But Jesus confirmed the directive of the Law. That is was Good.

Second thing, and this may be bc I think its idolatrous to worship Jesus (as I believe trinity is a manmade not Jesus made concept...

Yes a lot of people think like that. Because they can only see Jesus as a mere man.

I dont see where he instructed people to worship him, only listen to his words and acknowledge him... big difference in my book)...

Matthew 28
8 So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word.9 And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!� So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell My brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see Me.�

What was the reaction of Jesus to being worshiped? Did he pull them up and say do not worship me? No. He reassured them.

John 20
24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.�
So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.�
26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!� 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.�
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!�
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.�

Thomas declared Jesus to be not just his Lord But his God. Did Jesus react with shock? or declare Thomas guilty of blasphemy. No He said, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.� I am one of the blessed ones for i am glad to say Jesus is My Lord and My God.

Revelation 1
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,� and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.�
12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Who is the Alpha and Omega? Who is the First and the Last? Why the God of Abraham that’s who. Now when did God die? When was God dead?

He died on the cross in Jerusalem and was raised from the grave 3 days later.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Hmmm, my bibles do not have penalties written in Exodus 20... where the 10 commandments are written. Penalties are explained later... who knows if those were from God or from a prophet who saw the people not following the original 10 on the tablets?

This is what you wish to believe.

So to you, God died.... and to you "the Lamb" is Jesus. The only thing I can say, bc it wont sway your belief, and that is not my intention anyway, is go reread Revelations as it is the "Spirit of Truth" mentioned in John 16:13... (which Christianity believes was pentecost). The Spirit of Truth does reveal the entire "plan" of/for man... if you believe it as truth. Here comes that human perception dilemma again... each person will see differently what is written based on his/her belief system. So, who goes where and who is what is a constant debate for "end times" discussions. Who is right? Is anyone right? What authority do you have to claim yourself as right?

I believe i am right. You believe your right. So what is the point about asking the question "who is right" ?

God knows what is right. And He has given what is right. People will believe different interpretations of what is Right depending on their nature. But in the end the true message will attract those who have the heart for it. Perfect system really when you think about it.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days