Why would God allow his holy book to be corrupted by man?

[zcaz]

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is God incarnated and this is evident through comparison ..
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Who saves the world?
"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11

...the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14
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The word and God are one
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God John 1:1

...the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...John 1:14
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God is the first and the last
I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4

Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17
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Only God is to be worshipped
... Then saith Jesus unto him... Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10

While [Jesus] spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him... Matthew 9:18
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Who is the Messiah?
...unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder...and his name shall be called... The mighty God, The everlasting Father... Isaiah 9:6 (talking about god being the messiah)

The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. John 4:25-26
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So here is clear cut evidence that Jesus in the Bible indirectly claimed to be God. If you reject this, you would have to believe that God allowed his word to be manipulated by man and or changed his mind when he gave Muhammad his revelation.

Wouldn't it make sense however, that the Bible claims Jesus is the only way to salvation, and Satan being the clever deceiver/copy cat that he is, gave a false revelation to Muhammad with the sole purpose of discrediting Jesus?

With so many Islamic organizations and movements out there hellbent on destroying Christians and Jews alike, it seems as if Islam is a 'wolf in sheeps clothing' where they do have good messages of peace but also a huge following of spiritual and political leaders who claim the Imam Mahdi is alive and is going to help in the uprising of Islam(sounds a lot like the Christian prophesied anti-christ).

I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm just wondering how Islam is justified in their beliefs that there is an almighty God, yet he allowed his word to be semi-perverted?

[Murad]

Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Raheem

Hello zcaz, im Murad, pleasure to meet you.

Regarding the Title of this post, you can read my replies in this thread:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=16514

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is God incarnated and this is evident through comparison ..

Quoting out of the Bible to a muslim, is like me quoting out of the Quran for you, it has no theological significance, but because i'm a student of comparative religion, meaning, i have studied the Quran & Bible, i will happily discuss the Bible.

________________________________________________________
Who saves the world?
"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11

...the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14
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Jeho'ahaz was also called a saviour:

(Therefore the LORD gave Israel a savior, so that they escaped from the hand of the Syrians; and the people of Israel dwelt in their homes as formerly.
(2 KINGS 13:5)

The hebrew word for savior is "mushio" literally meaning "one-saving".
The same word that you quoted in Isaiah 43:11 for "Savior" is used in 2 Kings 13:5 when describing Jeho'ahaz. So you tell me, is Prophet Jeho'ahaz "God Incarnate"?

Also, you do know that 1 John 4:14 is not Jesus talking? It is quite deceptive of you to destroy the context by putting '...' in the beginning. Also, just to make things clear, the Disciple John did not author that Gospel. It is a myth, with no objective evidence. The only reason why Christians believe that the Gospel of John, which was written 90 years after Jesus, & in a completely different language from what Jesus spoke (Jesus spoke aramaic the Gospels are in Greek) is because "Church TRADITION" says so. Another belief that relies on the fallacious argument from authority.

The word and God are one
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God John 1:1

...the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...John 1:14
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You do know that the concept of "Logos"(The Word) existed way before the Gospel of John was written? & ironically by a Jew named Philo.

God is the first and the last
I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4

Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17

Revelation is based on a dream some man had, this is what the biblical commentary had to say:

"Four times the author identifies himself as John (1:1,4,9; 22:8)...In the third century, however, an African bishop named Dionysius compared the language, style and thought of the Apocalypse (Revelation) with that of the other writings of John and decided that the book could not been written by the apostle of John. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 1922)"

Do you base your faith on a dream some anonymous man had?

______________________________________________________________
Only God is to be worshipped
... Then saith Jesus unto him... Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10

While [Jesus] spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him... Matthew 9:18
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Quite deceptive, Read the context:

While he was saying this, a ruler came and knelt before him and said, "My daughter has just died. But come and put your hand on her, and she will live."
(Matthew 9:18)

The reason that man "Worshipped" or a more accurate word "Knelt" to Jesus is because he wanted a miracle from him because his daughter was dying.

Furthermore, if we read the Old Testament:

7 With these words David rebuked his men and did not allow them to attack Saul. And Saul left the cave and went his way.
8 Then David went out of the cave and called out to Saul, "My lord the king!" When Saul looked behind him, David bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
9 He said to Saul, "Why do you listen when men say, 'David is bent on harming you'?
(1 Samuel 24:-)

David called Saul "my lord", Wow, so thats another God in Christianity?

Who is the Messiah?
...unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder...and his name shall be called... The mighty God, The everlasting Father... Isaiah 9:6 (talking about god being the messiah)

This has been explained numerous times.
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org.au/node/26

So here is clear cut evidence that Jesus in the Bible indirectly claimed to be God.

The bolded word is where Christendom faces problems.
& all of the biblical verses that supposedly assert 'Jesus is God', can be refuted, as i have just done.

If you reject this, you would have to believe that God allowed his word to be manipulated by man

If i believe the Bible, that means i would believe in an anonymous collection of anonymous texts, written in anonymous time periods that have discrepencies & self-conflicts within ancient & newer manuscripts (Both hebrew & greek).

The Quran is the restoration of pure monotheism & prophetic truth:

"Pure and exalted is thy Lord, God the Powerful and Unique, Who is pure of what men in their ignorance ascribe to Him."
(Quran 37:180)

Wouldn't it make sense however, that the Bible claims Jesus is the only way to salvation, and Satan being the clever deceiver/copy cat that he is, gave a false revelation to Muhammad with the sole purpose of discrediting Jesus?

Absolutely not, you tell me, can Gods word contain contradictions?

How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem?
(a) Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26).
(b) Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2).

How old was Jehoiachin when he became king of Jerusalem?
(a) Eighteen (2 Kings 24:8).
(b) Eight (2 Chronicles 36:9).

When David defeated the King of Zobah, how many horsemen did he capture?
(a) One thousand and seven hundred (2 Samuel 8:4).
(b) Seven thousand (1 Chronicles 18:4).

How many stalls for horses did Solomon have?
(a) Forty thousand (1 Kings 4:26).
(b) Four thousand (2 Chronicles 9:25).

In what year of King Asa’’s reign did Baasha, King of Israel die?
(a) Twenty-sixth year (1 Kings 15:33 - 16:8).
(b) Still alive in the thirty-sixth year (2 Chronicles 16:1).

Solomon built a facility containing how many baths?
(a) Two thousand (1 Kings 7:26).
(b) Over three thousand (2 Chronicles 4:5).

Ezra 2:64 and Nehemiah 7:66 agree that the total number of the whole assembly was 42,360. Yet the numbers do not add up to anything close. The totals obtained from each book is as follows:
(a) 29,818 (Ezra).
(b) 31, 089 (Nehemiah).

How many singers accompanied the assembly?
(a) Two hundred (Ezra 2:65).
(b) Two hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:67).

Who killed Goliath?
(a) David (1 Samuel 17:23, 50).
(b) Elhanan (2 Samuel 21:19).

Now compare that with:

Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.
[Quran 4:82]

... political leaders who claim the Imam Mahdi is alive and is going to help in the uprising of Islam(sounds a lot like the Christian prophesied anti-christ).

Quite the contrary. Imam Mahdi (meaning the "Guided One") is going to be some sort of 'helper' to Jesus Christ in his second comming.

I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm just wondering how Islam is justified in their beliefs that there is an almighty God, yet he allowed his word to be semi-perverted?

You have an honest question, which i hope the initial link i presented will answer, & i hope my rebuttals are sufficient enough to prove to you, the Bible is not the word of God.

“In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against God, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every – one that is on the earth? For to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For God hath power over all things.�
[Qur'an 5:17]

Jesus was no more than a messenger of God, like Abraham & Moses. The idea of a "God-Man" is absolute blasphemy not only in Islam, but also in Judaism:

God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? DOES HE PROMISE AND NOT FULFILL?
(Numbers 23:19)

1) Christians claim Jesus was 'man' as much as he was 'god', thus there is a conflict with the verse above.
2) This biblical prophecy above says God is NOT the "Son of Man" while Jesus referred to himself as "Son of Man":

Jesus said to him, "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the sky have nests, but the son of man has nowhere to lay his head."
(Luke 9:58 & Matthew 8:20)

3) The Prophecy of Jesus in Matthew 10:23 was unfullfilled:

One of the most problematic sayings in the whole Synoptic tradition [i.e., Matthew, Mark, and Luke] is this explicit statement that the disciples will not have completed their mission tour before the Son of man comes, i.e., before the age ends and the kingdom of God arrives in its fullness. (In Laymon 622)

But according to Numbers 23:19, God fulfills all his prophecies?


To Conclude:

“Why do you call me good?� Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.
(Mark 10:18)

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good - except God alone."
(Luke 18:19)

[moneer]

Very nice debate..

[moneer]

Very nice debate..

[McCulloch]

The Koran was written by a man who had no faith in God,

How can you say that? The writer of the Koran exhibit as much apparent faith in God as the writers of any other claimed revelation from the god. The language you choose betrays an us and them kind of attitude. Judaism, Islam, Sikhism, Hinduism and all the rest are all different faiths. Sure, in one sense, Islam could be called anti-Christ, but only in the sense that Christianity could be called an enemy of the Prophet or the Sikh Gurus.

Only God's people will come back to rule the world.

Odd thing that. Just about every religion going claims that they are the ones who are God's people. And none of them demonstrate it.

[McCulloch]

Buddha's wisdom was such that he knew that to help someone become reborn (spiritually, digitally, or otherwise) it took compassion and guidance. Christians absorb the deity of Christ at his death and they have him as God's source of guidance and compassion for the very same in-betweens. So when we die (spiritually, or otherwise) we pray for Jesus', or Buddha's, or God's, or anyone else to help us in our journey through the straits of the in-between, and Christ raises us on the last day. Being Christian and/or Buddhist means that, throughout our lifetime, we die and are reborn spiritually many times in preparation for the ultimate in-between. It is how we defeat death.

The Koran was written by a man who had no faith in God, Christ, the Bible (especially the NT) or anyone else who was involved with any other religion but the one he chose to create. Islam is antichrist in nature, and without the phylosophy of defeating death, all of Islam will linger after thay die (spiritually and otherwise), They will not know God's or Buddha's compassion, and they will not be reborn. Only God's people will come back to rule the world.

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[EasternSP]

Question for Murad.
What was Muhammad's upbringing in faith?
Did he have a conversion point that brought him to Islam?
Was there a specific reason that Allah choose him to write the Koran?

[EasternSP]

Question for Murad.
What was Muhammad's upbringing in faith?
Did he have a conversion point that brought him to Islam?
Was there a specific reason that Allah choose him to write the Koran?

He came from a Pagan backround who made up a different God for every day of the year. Making up Gods to worship was common ground.

Can you point me to your source of information on this Ball Pean?

[Murad]

Question for Murad.
What was Muhammad's upbringing in faith?
Did he have a conversion point that brought him to Islam?
Was there a specific reason that Allah choose him to write the Koran?

He came from a Pagan backround who made up a different God for every day of the year. Making up Gods to worship was common ground.

Can you point me to your source of information on this Ball Pean?

Hello EasternSP.

Never mind Ball Pean, he is anti-islamic / pro-christian. Anything he says is biased & most likely not true. Him talking about Islam is similar to some Jews talking about Jesus, not a good one.

He will be ignored in this discussion, however, i will more than happily answer all your questions.

1) What was Muhammad's upbringing in faith?
He was monotheistic, in that, he believed there was a deity, but he rejected the pagan Gods of the Quarish tribe which he grew up in. He was neither a Jew or a Christian, he just sensed there was a God, but he knew this God was not the pagan idols that were worshipped by the society around him.

2) Did he have a conversion point that brought him to Islam?
I highly reccomend you watching this or the full video. All your questions will be answered from an unbiased perspective.

In the year 610, Muhammad, while on a retreat to Mount Hira for meditation during the month of Ramadan, received his first revelation from the Archangel Gabriel. Gabriel said to Muhammad: "Iqraa," meaning "read" or "recite." He replied, "I cannot read." Gabriel embraced Muhammad and after releasing him repeated: "Iqraa." Muhammad's answer was the same as before. Gabriel repeated the embrace, asking Muhammad to repeat after him and said:
"Recite in the name of your Lord who created! He created man from that which clings. Recite; and thy Lord is most Bountiful, He who has taught by the pen, taught man what he knew not." -Quran Chapter 96


The Prophet's mission was to restore the worship of the One True God, the creator and sustainer of the universe, as taught by Prophet Abraham and all Prophets of God, and to demonstrate the laws of moral, ethical, legal, and social conduct. Islam means peace by submission and obedience to the Will and Commandments of God. Those who accept Islam are called Muslims, meaning those who have accepted the message of peace by submission to God.

3) Was there a specific reason that Allah choose him to write the Koran?
He did not write the Quran, he was illiterate, it was scribes that copied his words down into text.

Allah (God in arabic) in the Quran proclaims:

"He it is Who hath sent among the unlettered ones a messenger of their own, to recite unto them His revelations and to make them grow, and to teach them the Scripture and Wisdom, though heretofore they were indeed in error manifest, " (Quran 62:2)

His mission was to clear errors such as the Jews rejecting Jesus as the 'false messiah' when infact he was the awaited one, & the Christians making Jesus into "God Almighty" when he was no more than a prophet of God.

[EasternSP]

3) Was there a specific reason that Allah choose him to write the Koran?
He did not write the Quran, he was illiterate, it was scribes that copied his words down into text.

Allah (God in arabic) in the Quran proclaims:

"He it is Who hath sent among the unlettered ones a messenger of their own, to recite unto them His revelations and to make them grow, and to teach them the Scripture and Wisdom, though heretofore they were indeed in error manifest, " (Quran 62:2)

His mission was to clear errors such as the Jews rejecting Jesus as the 'false messiah' when infact he was the awaited one, & the Christians making Jesus into "God Almighty" when he was no more than a prophet of God.

Is this to say that he was choosen to reestablish God's word without error?
A couple of faiths come to mind as being established to restore God's word without the curruption. LDS and JWs. I haven't read the Koran because I can't read the original language. I would suppose an English version would be suspect of corruption in translation at least. Why would the Koran, in any language be exempt from error or changes?