Goths

[Todd]

Now I know this is not discussing a religion, it is a subculture though. Anyway, I noticed there wasn't anything on this board considering goths, so I'm just curious...What does everyone think about gothic people.

[otseng]

(Since this isn't really a debate topic, I've moved this to RR.)

Goth seems to me more of an expression of style, rather than any particular belief. So, I don't think of goth people any differently than those who express themselves in other ways.

Here are some links on goths:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/goth.htm
http://www.sfgoth.com/primer/
http://www.goth.net/
http://www.egoth.com/
http://www.christiangoth.com/

[Cathar1950]

They dress funny unless your one.

[Corvus]

What does everyone think about gothic people

Goth is just an aesthetic way of life which can be occasionally vulgar and occasionally cute. I think that it can be a bit too tragic sometimes, causing it to border on melodramatic melancholy.

A few days ago, on my way out from school, a goth lady in black lipstick and wearing a black leather corset suddenly struck up a conversation with me as we walked the same way, describing her day and explaining how very busy she was. I learnt, amongst other things, that she belongs to a medieval reproduction society and, after expressing some interest in pen and paper roleplaying games, she invited me to attend one at the university sometime. All in all, she was quite pleasant and her conversation refreshing.

The gothic aesthetic has become so popular with young people that, like rock, it is co-opted by Christians, particularly in the Christian music scene.

[foshizzle]

I think a huge problem with the Gothic trend that seems to be sweeping through schools (American, anyway) is: people become gothic because they "don't want to be like anyone else." They conform to something that they see as non-conformist.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

[Dilettante]

I imagine you are not referring to the Germanic tribes which overran the Roman Empire, but to black-clad youths who look like Marc Bolan's grandchildren. I have no opinion other than that I never understood why it was necessary to imitate your favorite musician's dress styles. When I was 18 (and that was a while ago...) there was a brief period when I listened to Bauhaus and other "gothic" bands a lot. I never felt the need to become a "goth", however.
Now some of my students have adopted that style. One even has a backpack shaped like a coffin. I've noticed it's usually the kids who are afraid of the possibility of being bullied or picked on that become goths. I guess that makes them look tough. Then you talk to them and you realize that they are nice kids. It's a self-defence mechanism in some cases, I suppose. It's ironic that it becomes sort of like a uniform.
I am not a big fan of romanticism (quite the opposite, I'm afraid) but I don't think that the goth scene is particularly worrying, except perhaps in the case of depressive people with suicidal tendencies.

[ST88]

there was a brief period when I listened to Bauhaus and other "gothic" bands a lot. I never felt the need to become a "goth", however.
Now some of my students have adopted that style. One even has a backpack shaped like a coffin. I've noticed it's usually the kids who are afraid of the possibility of being bullied or picked on that become goths. I guess that makes them look tough. Then you talk to them and you realize that they are nice kids. It's a self-defence mechanism in some cases, I suppose. It's ironic that it becomes sort of like a uniform.

Bauhaus, eh? I am probably of the same generation as you. In high school, I remember this one girl in my grade who was painfully shy and, let's be honest, not all that good-looking. One year she showed up as a goth, decked out with the green and pink streaks in jet-black hair, whiteface makeup, multiple piercings, and dark eye marks. She seemed like a completely different person -- she was suddenly outgoing, suddenly cynical (and funny), and to this untrained eye she appeared better looking. I realize how misogynist that sounds, but hey I was 16. I don't know if there was a precipitating event in her life that caused her to alter her appearance, or even if there was a correlation, but it seemed like it brought her out of her shell and, ironically, allowed her to join the larger high school community.

Myself, I was a mod for a while, but that's a different story.

[Dilettante]

I guess we are of the same generation. I remember there was a mod craze in my hometown (after all, the only vehicle young people were likely to have were Vespas and Lambrettas anyway because they were too young to drive and cars were too expensive). But as you say, that's a different story.

I have observed many times the phenomenon you describe so well: a shy kid gains new confidence by re-inventing himself/herself as goth (or other). In most cases this is only a stage, and later they learn to be self- confident without the make-up.

[v_octane]

sorry to butt into your conversation, but i was kinda interested in what a goth really is. i had the wonderful experience of hanging out with a guy who dressed really weird and professed to be an anarchist, also wore a belt made out of bullets, and all those other very fasionable clothing styles "goths" like to wear. my question is, what exactly is a goth? if he or she is a non-conformist or anarchist, like the previous guy said, aren't they already conforming to a certain group?

are goths noticable only by their clothing or music they listen to, or is there more to it? the guy i talked to preached what i understood to be communism, in which everyone is equal, no marriage, no anything society today has established as moral and correct, and so on. as i understand, communism in itself is a total flaw because a social class (the communistic government) is automatically established.

i guess my main question is, what are the basic characteristics and beliefs a goth confesses to?

[ST88]

i guess my main question is, what are the basic characteristics and beliefs a goth confesses to?

I don't know about nowadays -- he said reaching for his cane -- but back in the olden days of goth awareness (the lamentably lost 80s), all it meant was a rejection of the standard of beauty foisted on teenagers by the media -- hence the Robert Smithlike visages. It was an outgrowth of the punk movement, as far as I could tell: Rebellion against just about anything that represented power. The goths that I knew did not share a philosophy, like communism or anarchy, they mostly just questioned existing power structures and images of "what should be".

For a lot of them, I think it was also a retreat from the society that they questioned -- a stage, as Dilettante said -- in which they could readily hang back and be observers and wonder why things were the way they were. The white makeup and black clothes could be seen as a mask to both hide from view and also as a shield from the inevitable adolescent derision that everyone gets. Think about it like this: Jocks and socs and every other imperious social group will find something about you and harass you for it. A large nose, being overweight, having thick glasses. But if you can control what that "something" is, then you have the power over them, because you control their behavior. It's patently obvious that you're a goth because you dress that way, and being made fun of because of that is something you expect and can revel in, in your own way. These people were some of the most introverted I have ever known: except when they were goths.