Does Divine foreknowledge negate free will?

[EduChris]

In Islam, Allah is said to have taken his pen and begun to write. Each person's life has been scripted out in precise, exact detail before the world was created. Some Christians even have similar views of the God of the Bible (although I and many other Christians do not share that view).

Anyway, the question is, If God has scripted every detail of our lives before we were even born, can we still have free will?

I do not wish to debate whether we actually have free will, or whether free will is possible in our physical universe. The question at hand is simply whether free will--freedom of choice, freedom to do otherwise--makes any sense at all if our lives have been scripted by the Deity before we were born.

[Goat]

In Islam, Allah is said to have taken his pen and begun to write. Each person's life has been scripted out in precise, exact detail before the world was created. Some Christians even have similar views of the God of the Bible (although I and many other Christians do not share that view).

Anyway, the question is, If God has scripted every detail of our lives before we were even born, can we still have free will?

I do not wish to debate whether we actually have free will, or whether free will is possible in our physical universe. The question at hand is simply whether free will--freedom of choice, freedom to do otherwise--makes any sense at all if our lives have been scripted by the Deity before we were born.

That is the entire definition of 'predestination'. If your actions are known before you have the opportunity to even make a choice, then, the choice you have is just an illusion, because you are acting out a script that already is known.

Your choices are 'pre-determined', even if you think you are making a choice.

[EduChris]

...If your actions are known before you have the opportunity to even make a choice, then, the choice you have is just an illusion, because you are acting out a script that already is known...

I agree with you on this point, but I was hoping to hear also from those with opposing views.

The importance of this, at least from my view, is that if it could be proven that Divine foreknowlede precludes free will, then this would constitute a philosophical argument against the logical coherence of current Islamic theology and Qur'anic interpretation.

And yes, it would also constitute a philosophical argument against the logical coherence of the Calvinistic branch of Christianity.

[ChaosBorders]

Anyway, the question is, If God has scripted every detail of our lives before we were even born, can we still have free will?

Only if God did not interfere at all. In that case, his recording of our lives would merely be an observation of what we ended up choosing to do. However, if God actively influenced the 'story' as it were, free will is negated. If the universe operates in a deterministic fashion, then God already did that merely through the act of creating it.

[EduChris]

...Only if God did not interfere at all. In that case, his recording of our lives would merely be an observation of what we ended up choosing to do...

On this thread we are assuming, for sake of argument, that free will exists. What we are trying to determine is whether Divine foreknowledge can be compatible with that free will.

I haven't had anyone explain to me how a script written out before I was born could at the same time be the logical equivalent of an after-the-fact recording of what I freely chose to do.

[ChaosBorders]

I haven't had anyone explain to me how a script written out before I was born could at the same time be the logical equivalent of an after-the-fact recording of what I freely chose to do.

Depends entirely on to what degree the being doing the writing interferes with the chains of events. If there is no interference on the writer's part, there is no difference between observing an event before it happened (due to omniscience) and observing the event after it happened. (Or observing the event from outside of time, rendering the use of words like before and after meaningless).

But given that God is viewed as having actively set the events in motion, I do not think there can be any free will in that context by any meaningful definition of the word free.

[EduChris]

...If there is no interference on the writer's part, there is no difference between observing an event before it happened (due to omniscience) and observing the event after it happened. (Or observing the event from outside of time, rendering the use of words like before and after meaningless)...

Yes, I have heard both of those arguments used, but I still can't decide whether such explanations make sense. I need an explanation of the explanation. How is it that we could "do otherwise" if our "choice" has already been scripted beforehand?

[ChaosBorders]

...If there is no interference on the writer's part, there is no difference between observing an event before it happened (due to omniscience) and observing the event after it happened. (Or observing the event from outside of time, rendering the use of words like before and after meaningless)...

Yes, I have heard both of those arguments used, but I still can't decide whether such explanations make sense. I need an explanation of the explanation. How is it that we could "do otherwise" if our "choice" has already been scripted beforehand?

Because the script is more like a report. Reports are made by external observers who has no influence (generally) on what is being reported. Because of our nature, these reports are made after the event. But an omniscient being has no need to wait until after the event occurs to write down what will happen. As long as the being did not interfere with the event or any preceding thing that caused the event to occur, there is no reason the principle actors in the event couldn't have chosen to do differently.

But again, God is almost never relegated to the role of mere observer, which makes this exception inconsequential.

[Goat]

...If your actions are known before you have the opportunity to even make a choice, then, the choice you have is just an illusion, because you are acting out a script that already is known...

I agree with you on this point, but I was hoping to hear also from those with opposing views.

The importance of this, at least from my view, is that if it could be proven that Divine foreknowlede precludes free will, then this would constitute a philosophical argument against the logical coherence of current Islamic theology and Qur'anic interpretation.

And yes, it would also constitute a philosophical argument against the logical coherence of the Calvinistic branch of Christianity.

Either that, or against free will. There is another way out of the conundrum.. 'omniscient' is only in comparison to our understandings.. and the future is not known 100%. If 'Omniscient' is 'know all that can be known' and the future could not yet be known, then free will could exist from a philosophical point of view.

However, in my opinion, free will and 'divine foreknowledge' is mutually exclusive. However, they both could be non-existent too. One view of the physics behind QM theory (The hidden variable interpretation) is that the future could be predetermined but unpredictable, due the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. This is where my mind breaks down and I start getting a head ache, and I'll let the high powered math geniuses get their geek on.

[LiamOS]

In Islam, Allah is said to have taken his pen and begun to write. Each person's life has been scripted out in precise, exact detail before the world was created. Some Christians even have similar views of the God of the Bible (although I and many other Christians do not share that view).

Anyway, the question is, If God has scripted every detail of our lives before we were even born, can we still have free will?

I do not wish to debate whether we actually have free will, or whether free will is possible in our physical universe. The question at hand is simply whether free will--freedom of choice, freedom to do otherwise--makes any sense at all if our lives have been scripted by the Deity before we were born.

We have no free will in the same way that a watch doesn't.