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[Skyangel]

Hello, I am a mother of four children and a grandmother of 5 so far. I have been married for 35 years to the same man. We live in Australia.
I like to debate about religious doctrines. My other hobbies are needlework , gardening and some graphic art.

I was brought up in an agnostic home and came to believe in what the bible calls God after I left home at a young age. I have been studying the bible and religious doctrines for over 40 years.

I do not belong to any religion but have been to a few churches to learn what they teach and have discovered most religions teach falsehoods and doctrines which make no sense at all. I like things to make sense.

I have been on other debate groups which were run by professing Christians as well as in some which were run by unbelievers in God. I have found that most people, christian and nonchristian alike, refuse to consider or understand anything at all which is contrary to their own beliefs.

I believe in truth and from my experience I have found that very few people will tell the truth or accept the truth especially when that truth tends to offend them.

Most people are brought up with the concept that it is rude to speak the truth and we must not tell the truth at all when it hurts peoples feelings but we are supposed to say things which they like to hear, which are things that tickle their ears and stroke their egos. When people don't follow that "political correctness" then they are generally treated as an outcast and not accepted by the rest of the group. It makes no difference if that group is Christian or not. They have the same basic principles of casting out anyone who refuses to stoke their egos and who tells the truth about what they are thinking and calls a spade a spade.

People hate being offended and can't stand the truth which offends. They prefer to hear polite lies and hide the truth. In my opinion that makes most people hypocrites regardless of whether they are believers in God or not. Why ? Because most people will tell you they do want to hear the truth of what you are thinking but when it comes down to telling them what you are really thinking they hate it and don't want to hear it at all and end up rejecting you for offending them with truth.

So how many people really want to know the truth of what others think and how many want to have their egos stroked with political correctness?

I can see and understand both sides of most things and can therefore debate both sides of most things so I am very flexible, yet very stable and balanced in my beliefs.

I look forward to interacting with those who chose to debate with me.

[Goat]

Welcome, it will be interesting to see another freethinking theist on board. The people who are flexible make the most enjoyable adversaries. .. because you actually have to THINK to reply properly.

[otseng]

Welcome to the forum!

[Skyangel]

Welcome, it will be interesting to see another freethinking theist on board. The people who are flexible make the most enjoyable adversaries. .. because you actually have to THINK to reply properly.

Finding people who can actually think and reply properly is difficult on the net because most groups on the net are filled with people who love fiction more than reality. Most are playing games more than being serious about anything.

[otseng]

Not just on the net, but for the general population as well.

Not many people I find are interested in discussing deeper topics. And especially those that require research and contemplation. What are people more interested in? Talking about how people move a ball back and forth on a field. Watching amateurs show how well they can sing. Religiously shelling out $10 or more to visit the movie temples. Sitting mindlessly in front of the TV/computer playing games for hours. Not that these things are bad. But, when this is what consumes most of peoples' lives, I feel it is such a superficial life.

[McCulloch]

Welcome Skyangel.

I do not belong to any religion but have been to a few churches to learn what they teach and have discovered most religions teach falsehoods and doctrines which make no sense at all. I like things to make sense.

You do realize that without churches and organized religion, the Bible would not have been produced and Christ would have been long ago forgotten. Paul, Peter, James and even Jesus talk about the church and how it should be run. Do you ignore the parts of the Bible which discuss these matters?

I believe in truth and from my experience I have found that very few people will tell the truth or accept the truth especially when that truth tends to offend them.

I believe that claiming to have the truth brings with it the responsibility to demonstrate objectively that what you claim is true. It has been my experience that the followers of the revealed religions, fail to meet that responsibility.

Most people are brought up with the concept that it is rude to speak the truth and we must not tell the truth at all when it hurts peoples feelings but we are supposed to say things which they like to hear, which are things that tickle their ears and stroke their egos. When people don't follow that "political correctness" then they are generally treated as an outcast and not accepted by the rest of the group.

Don't I know it! In western society, atheists and other non-theists have been historically shunned and treated as outcast for far too long.

I can see and understand both sides of most things and can therefore debate both sides of most things so I am very flexible, yet very stable and balanced in my beliefs.

That is an important ability.

[Skyangel]

Welcome Skyangel.

Thanks

You do realize that without churches and organized religion, the Bible would not have been produced and Christ would have been long ago forgotten. Paul, Peter, James and even Jesus talk about the church and how it should be run. Do you ignore the parts of the Bible which discuss these matters?

The bible would never have been written unless people actually wrote down their thoughts and experiences.
There is no reason to ignore anything in the bible. How one interprets it is up to them and whether people obey it all or not and believe it all or not is also up to them. Obviously many people interpret the writings in many different ways. There are at least two ways to interpret everything in the bible and sometimes there are more than two ways to interpret the scriptures. That is why the word of God is called a two edged sword. It cuts both ways at all times and divides many things and many people.

I believe that claiming to have the truth brings with it the responsibility to demonstrate objectively that what you claim is true. It has been my experience that the followers of the revealed religions, fail to meet that responsibility.

To demonstrate the Truth in physical and tangible reality one needs to be face to face with that tangible Truth. However, even when Jesus who is the Truth was face to face with religious hypocrites, they still could not recognize the Truth in Him but called Him a liar. Religions do indeed fail to demonstrate the Truth but that ought not surprise those who understand that religion is as hypocritical today as it was in the days of Jesus. Hypocrites still can't recognize the Truth themselves any better than the religious hypocrites of Jesus days could recognize the Truth standing right in front of them.

Don't I know it! In western society, atheists and other non-theists have been historically shunned and treated as outcast for far too long.

I presume you are talking about being treated as an outcast by religious institutions because they hate it when you speak your mind and tell them exactly what you think about them?
Look at the other side of the fence, and place yourself in their shoes. The religious feel the same way. They also feel like the non-theists and unbelievers treat them as if they were some kind of "aliens". Such is life. In essence it makes no difference if you are a believer or an unbeliever. The fact is that most groups or clubs expect their members to be loyal to the club and therefore they end up being a clique who simply cast out anyone they see as disloyal and it makes no difference at all if you are talking about religious or nonreligious groups. To be part of a group you generally need to agree with and loyally support what they are doing or what they stand for and those who don't cant be part of the club. They are either adversaries of the cause or indifferent to the cause of the club.

That is an important ability.

It's one of my best assets.

[McCulloch]

You do realize that without churches and organized religion, the Bible would not have been produced and Christ would have been long ago forgotten. Paul, Peter, James and even Jesus talk about the church and how it should be run. Do you ignore the parts of the Bible which discuss these matters?

There is no reason to ignore anything in the bible. How one interprets it is up to them and whether people obey it all or not and believe it all or not is also up to them. Obviously many people interpret the writings in many different ways. There are at least two ways to interpret everything in the bible and sometimes there are more than two ways to interpret the scriptures. That is why the word of God is called a two edged sword. It cuts both ways at all times and divides many things and many people.

I agree that many of the teachings in the Bible are ambiguous, evidence that they are not from a god who wants us to understand what he want us to do. However, you appear to have dodged the intent of the question. The New Testament teaches a lot of things about the church, its functioning, it officers (bishops and deacons), et cetera. How do you interpret those teachings and still stay away from organized communities of Christians?

Don't I know it! In western society, atheists and other non-theists have been historically shunned and treated as outcast for far too long.

I presume you are talking about being treated as an outcast by religious institutions because they hate it when you speak your mind and tell them exactly what you think about them?

No, I am talking about how, for centuries, institutes of higher education were run with an imposed religious agenda. At one time, it was impossible to become educated without agreeing to some form of religious orthodoxy. And even now, in many western secular democracies, an open atheist is virtually unelectable to high public office.

Look at the other side of the fence, and place yourself in their shoes. The religious feel the same way. They also feel like the non-theists and unbelievers treat them as if they were some kind of "aliens". Such is life.

I've been on the other side. What book, by default, are you presented to swear an oath on in court? Which religion has its holidays recognized as statutory holidays in your country? Are you required to acknowledge a god, albeit minimally, in order to make a purchase? In my country, the ceremonial head of state, is constitutionally required to be a non-Catholic Christian. I learned to recite the Lord's Prayer not in Sunday school, but as a child in the public school system. I'm told that they don't do that anymore.

[Skyangel]

I agree that many of the teachings in the Bible are ambiguous, evidence that they are not from a god who wants us to understand what he want us to do. However, you appear to have dodged the intent of the question. The New Testament teaches a lot of things about the church, its functioning, it officers (bishops and deacons), et cetera. How do you interpret those teachings and still stay away from organized communities of Christians?

It appears to me that most people, regardless of whether they are believers in God or not, tend to interpret the word "Church" as an organized religion or religions but that is not how I see or interpret the concept of the word "Church"
When I read the bible, I see it basically condemning the hypocrites in churches and I see it talking about a "harlot" which is also referring to a church. I see the bible telling people to get out of that harlot church and not to remain in it.
Jesus never belonged to any "church" or any man made religion, did He?
Jesus was the cornerstone of the church and the rest of the stones or bricks in the church are the people in it according to the bible.
You cannot go to any church if you ARE the church can you ? A church does not go to church. It cannot move because it is cemented to its foundation. That is how I stay away from the groups of man made religions. I am cemented to a solid rock which does not move any place. I am a part of the immovable living church which has no man made building. People either come to me or avoid me.

No, I am talking about how, for centuries, institutes of higher education were run with an imposed religious agenda. At one time, it was impossible to become educated without agreeing to some form of religious orthodoxy. And even now, in many western secular democracies, an open atheist is virtually unelectable to high public office.

Those institutes are still run with an imposed agenda, regardless of whether it is religious or not. Think about it. If you do any kind of study at all you need to learn and agree with, or at least be able to quote what they all consider to be the "correct" answers before you can pass the tests they set for any degree you wish to earn. Basically you need to at least tell your teachers, professors and judges, exactly what they want to hear or they wont give you a pass mark and wont allow you to gain the doctorate or degree you are after no matter if it is secular or religious. Those who get elected are the ones who can manage to win the most votes from the people who are judging them or happen to be deciding whether they are worthy of the office they are applying for or whether they are lacking in some way.
That principle applies in all areas of life, secular as well as religious and in essence that same principle is used by God in the bible to decide if people are "worthy" of His acceptance or not. Is it not?

I've been on the other side. What book, by default, are you presented to swear an oath on in court? Which religion has its holidays recognized as statutory holidays in your country? Are you required to acknowledge a god, albeit minimally, in order to make a purchase? In my country, the ceremonial head of state, is constitutionally required to be a non-Catholic Christian. I learned to recite the Lord's Prayer not in Sunday school, but as a child in the public school system. I'm told that they don't do that anymore.

Are you telling me you were once a Christian or some other religion and decided to become Atheist? If so, what made you leave your religion?

When it comes to the court system in Australia, from what I know of it, it appears flexible enough for most people. If people wish to swear an oath on the bible they are given the bible. If they wish to swear on any other holy book they are given their book of choice. If they don't believe in any religion or holy book they are simply asked to promise to tell the truth and to my knowledge and understanding. that ritual is done in most law courts. It's simply part of of their traditions.


When it comes to schools, it depends on what schools you attend. Many general public schools have banned religion of any kind from their schools altogether, others have made religion optional and give people a choice as to which religion they wish to study in their schools. Private schools usually still make religion compulsory, especially those which are religiously based schools which are run or owned by organized churches like Catholic schools for example. Therefore in the school systems in Australia, parents have a choice as to whether they wish to put their children through a system which offers religious education or not.

Most children who's parents force them to attend any kind of Christian Sunday school are still taught to recite the Lords prayer and other scriptures.

[Skyangel]

McCulloch, I am not sure where you got your pie graph of the worlds religions but any graph can be made according to the bias of the one who makes it.

Look at
http://www.blog.joelx.com/wp-content/up ... -graph.gif
Anyone can make charts but all charts are meaningless because they are all biased in some way.

Most people who claim to believe in God also do not really believe in God at all. They just pretend to believe and go through the motions and rituals because it is expected of them by their family or peers and they don't want to be cast out of their peer group. Most people have a need to belong to something or someone. It gives them a sense of love and security to belong to someone or something knowing they are accepted by the group they belong to as long as they abide by the rules and participate in the rituals.

All groups , secular and religious, are the same in that regard. They all say "abide by our rules or you will be cast out or banned from the group."