Just me

bigad · Post by **bigad** » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:37 am

Hi Im Adam, i used to be a catholic but when i was old enough to question religion i didnt like the answers as they did not hold up to scrutiny. I believe in a higher being but believe religion was designed to control the masses and has no place in a modern society. I dont buy the big bang theory but i do believe in evolution, as you cannot argue with facts, we see natural selection around us every day, dogs were created by man through simple natural selection!

Post by **otseng** » Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:25 pm

Welcome!

Yes, mankind can breed dogs (through artificial selection). But, the dogs are still dogs.

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:17 pm

otseng wrote:Welcome!

Yes, mankind can breed dogs (through artificial selection). But, the dogs are still dogs.

But are substantical size and coloration differences due to the change in alleles.

bigad · Post by **bigad** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:03 am

otseng wrote:Welcome!

Yes, mankind can breed dogs (through artificial selection). But, the dogs are still dogs.

But dogs didnt exist till man created them from wolves, they are an entirely new species. And each breed has its distinct differences through artificial selection, but this can also be seen in nature, for example there is a species of moth that lives in north america that live on the trunks of trees, originally these trees and moths were white, but with the industrial revolution the trees became blackened with pollutants and soot from a nearby factory, slowly all the moths which were very white were all eaten as they could be seen easily on the dark wood, however all the darker moths survived till eventually the breed became a dark brown moth, then as laws were passed to control the pollution, the trees started to return to there natural colour, and as this happened the darker brown moths started to get eaten as they could easily be seen and slowly the moth population became white again. Clear evidence of natural selection.

I welcome challenges to my opinions with substance, to but to simply say a dog is still a dog is not proof of god!

Post by **otseng** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:21 am

bigad wrote: But dogs didnt exist till man created them from wolves, they are an entirely new species.

No, they are not an entirely new species, dogs and wolves can interbreed.

And each breed has its distinct differences through artificial selection, but this can also be seen in nature, for example there is a species of moth that lives in north america that live on the trunks of trees,

Darker or lighter colors do not demonstrate much to me anymore than there also exist dark and light color skin humans.

I welcome challenges to my opinions with substance, to but to simply say a dog is still a dog is not proof of god!

No, I never said it's a proof of God.

bigad · Post by **bigad** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:41 am

otseng wrote:
bigad wrote: But dogs didnt exist till man created them from wolves, they are an entirely new species.
No, they are not an entirely new species, dogs and wolves can interbreed.

And each breed has its distinct differences through artificial selection, but this can also be seen in nature, for example there is a species of moth that lives in north america that live on the trunks of trees,
Darker or lighter colors do not demonstrate much to me anymore than there also exist dark and light color skin humans.

I welcome challenges to my opinions with substance, to but to simply say a dog is still a dog is not proof of god!
No, I never said it's a proof of God.

Im afraid you are wrong, dogs were created by man, they did not exist till man created them, you can breed tigers with lions to produce ligers, doesnt make them the same animal just from the same family, wolves do not bark, you dont get wolves you can fit in your handbag!

What is your point about humans coming in different colours? we are talking about a breed of moth that completely changed its colour in less than 25 years and then changed back, plus the differences in human colours is due to evolution and environmental influences, which would help support my argument, not debunk it! So again i say if your going to challenge my opinions, please have some substance to your challenge!

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:51 pm

otseng wrote:
bigad wrote: But dogs didnt exist till man created them from wolves, they are an entirely new species.
No, they are not an entirely new species, dogs and wolves can interbreed.

And each breed has its distinct differences through artificial selection, but this can also be seen in nature, for example there is a species of moth that lives in north america that live on the trunks of trees,
Darker or lighter colors do not demonstrate much to me anymore than there also exist dark and light color skin humans.

I welcome challenges to my opinions with substance, to but to simply say a dog is still a dog is not proof of god!
No, I never said it's a proof of God.

There are a lot of species that can create offspring. For example, the tiger and the lion can create offspring..either called the Tigon or the liger, depending on which species has the male.

The resulting males are sterile, but often the females can be fertile

And I would love to see you get a tea cup poodle and a great dane to mate!

Then, of course, there is the donkey/horse hybrid known as the 'mule'

There are even many hybrids where the parents have a different number of chromosomes.

For example, there is this this odd creature , which is a hybrid between a sheep and a goat. Goats have 60 chromosomes and sheep have 54.

The 'species being able to reproduce' together is very much of a grey area. If you look at the ring species, you can see how this can be a bit messy.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:36 pm

goat wrote: The 'species being able to reproduce' together is very much of a grey area. If you look at the ring species, you can see how this can be a bit messy.

This messiness is predicted by evolutionary theory and not by special divine creation.

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:53 pm

McCulloch wrote:
goat wrote: The 'species being able to reproduce' together is very much of a grey area. If you look at the ring species, you can see how this can be a bit messy.

This messiness is predicted by evolutionary theory and not by special divine creation.

Absolutely. What surprises me is the number of hybrids otu there that are viable, even though the parent species have different number of chromosomes, or are seperated by millions of years and a continent. The llama and the camel can produce a hybrid with in vitro fertilization that is viable and fertile. They can't physically reproduce naturally, even in put in the same enclosure because of the differences in size.

Miles · Post by **Miles** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:17 pm

bigad wrote:Dogs were created by man through simple natural selection!

They are an entirely new species.

Dogs are not the result of natural selection, but are a domesticated version of the wolf---the gray wolf if I remember correctly--- and they are not considered a different species from the wolf, but a wolf subspecies: Canis lupus familiaris. The gray wolf being C. l. lupus.

Breeds do not merit taxonomic designations.