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Does God teach discrimination?
Moderator: Moderators
Does God teach discrimination?
Post #1Why would Chrsitians disobey Caesar's laws that say not to discriminate? Does God teach discrimination? Yes.
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Post #3
Yes, Christians should support a return to the good old days, when they were readily generous with providing homosexuals with several pieces of wood, a rope, and a fire.
That would be the Christian thing to do, wouldn't it?
I mean since you apparently don't mind flaunting "Caesar" to do God's will...
That would be the Christian thing to do, wouldn't it?
I mean since you apparently don't mind flaunting "Caesar" to do God's will...
Gilt and Vetinari shared a look. It said: While I loathe you and all of your personal philosophy to a depth unplummable by any line, I will credit you at least with not being Crispin Horsefry [The big loud idiot in the room].
-Going Postal, Discworld
-Going Postal, Discworld
Post #4
The picture appears in another thread as well.
Even if one accepts that Shamgar's understanding of the biblical quote is really what God is saying, I think he is confusing what God is saying he will do with how we as people should be acting towards each other.
Suppose for the sake of arguement that no person fitting any of these descriptions is going to heaven. This is supposedly God's decision. This does not imply that we are allowed to make these judgments for ourselves, or to discriminate or persecute others on the basis of what our assumptions are about how God will decide.
God calls us to love all men, even our enemies.
Even if one accepts that Shamgar's understanding of the biblical quote is really what God is saying, I think he is confusing what God is saying he will do with how we as people should be acting towards each other.
Suppose for the sake of arguement that no person fitting any of these descriptions is going to heaven. This is supposedly God's decision. This does not imply that we are allowed to make these judgments for ourselves, or to discriminate or persecute others on the basis of what our assumptions are about how God will decide.
God calls us to love all men, even our enemies.
Post #5
Funny Christ didn't say to love these enemies. Context is so important. Maybe if you understood the context then you wouldn't make such fooloish comments.
Luke 19: 27 But those who are my enemies, who did not desire that I should reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.
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Luke 19: 27 But those who are my enemies, who did not desire that I should reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.
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Post #6
Your quote is from a parable, a parable which is usually interpreted as applying to the Pharisees. The ruler is interpreted as Christ, NOT CHRISTIANS IN GENERAL, and may well refer to a coming age, not this one. Again, you seem to be usurping God's role. The fact that Jesus will judge does not give us license to judge.
Christ commands us to love our enemies. He doesn't say 'some' enemies or 'only those enemies.' It seems to me the best reading is that He means ALL enemies, and those who persecute us.
Christ commands us to love our enemies. He doesn't say 'some' enemies or 'only those enemies.' It seems to me the best reading is that He means ALL enemies, and those who persecute us.
Post #7
Such a bunch of babble. God is God in the parable. Caesar is an unrighteous ruling authority. Parbles have hidden meaning to the outsiders. . . that explains why you have no clue about the true answer.micatala wrote:Your quote is from a parable, a parable which is usually interpreted as applying to the Pharisees. The ruler is interpreted as Christ, NOT CHRISTIANS IN GENERAL, and may well refer to a coming age, not this one. Again, you seem to be usurping God's role. The fact that Jesus will judge does not give us license to judge.
Christ commands us to love our enemies. He doesn't say 'some' enemies or 'only those enemies.' It seems to me the best reading is that He means ALL enemies, and those who persecute us.
Don't judge? Yeah right.
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Post #8
OK. Here are the verses I have supposedly ripped out of the Bible, according to your opinion.
John 7:24. "Stop judging by mere appearances and make a right judgment."
The context is that the "Jews" have accused Jesus of being demon-possessed and are angry at him for healing on the sabbath, even though it was a common practice to circumcise on the sabbath, if it happened to be the eigth day (see Lev. 12:3). It seems that what is being judged here are not people but scripture. Jesus is saying that his critics are in error concerning their judgment of God's will as revealed through scripture.
Deut. 1:16-17. "And I charged your judges at that time: Hear the dsiputes between your brothers and judge fairly, whether the case is between brother Israelites or between brother Israelites and an alien. Do not show partiality in judging; hear both small and great alike. Do not be afraid of any man, for judgment belongs to God. Bring me any case too hard for you, and I will hear it." (The "I" hear is Moses).
I don't see how this my position is in conflict with this verse. The verse is clearly talking about those who have been given the civic duty to judge. This is, as I was saying, clearly different than an individual believer judging another believer's relationship with God. Romans 14:13, " . . let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way." Verse 1: "Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters." Verse 10: "You, then, why do you judge yoru brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat."
Interestingly, the passage you cite from Deuteronomy also says that Israelites (the chosen people) are to be judged equally with aliens. In other words, there should not be discrimination!!. Also, I believe that aliens (perhaps we could read unbelievers here), were not subject to all of the laws that the Israelites were subject, even if they were living among the Israelites. Certainly, not all those who would classify themselves as homosexuals are unbelievers. It seems to me that those that do should not be subject to theocratically based laws, unless there is some other compelling reason to do so. Those that are believers, I think have the same freedom as any believer, to address the issue with their God as they see fit, again, unless there is some compelling other reason. I personally do not see any compelling societal reason to disallow gay marriage.
Jer. 9:24 " . . . but let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the Lord, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth for in these I delight."
Yet again, it is the Lord who is exercising justice. Notice also he is exercising kindness. There is nothing here that indicates it is our place as believers to judge others in their walk with God, or that believers are allowed to judge unbelievers in a discriminatory way.
The verses in your picture are worth comment.
I Cor. 14:33 seems to me to be irrelevant to the discussion. It is talking about behaviour of prophets in church. I think it is a big stretch to say that this implies their should never be any disagreement among believers, if I am understanding what you are trying to say here. Clearly, Paul allows that there can be "debatable matters," and this does not necessarily have to constitute "confusion."
I can see your point in the other verses. Obviously allowing gays to marry would be against what many people believe is God's will. Yes, I would agree that there are passages of scripture which imply that homosexuality is a sin, although I am not completely convinced that some of these passages do not suffer from translation problems.
Even if we assume that homosexuality is against God's will, that still does not settle what we should do from a legal standpoint, in my opinion. There are many things that are listed as sinful in the Bible, some only in the old testament, that we do not have laws against.
On what basis are we going to decide which of these a society, which includes non-Christians, should make illegal and which not?
John 7:24. "Stop judging by mere appearances and make a right judgment."
The context is that the "Jews" have accused Jesus of being demon-possessed and are angry at him for healing on the sabbath, even though it was a common practice to circumcise on the sabbath, if it happened to be the eigth day (see Lev. 12:3). It seems that what is being judged here are not people but scripture. Jesus is saying that his critics are in error concerning their judgment of God's will as revealed through scripture.
Deut. 1:16-17. "And I charged your judges at that time: Hear the dsiputes between your brothers and judge fairly, whether the case is between brother Israelites or between brother Israelites and an alien. Do not show partiality in judging; hear both small and great alike. Do not be afraid of any man, for judgment belongs to God. Bring me any case too hard for you, and I will hear it." (The "I" hear is Moses).
I don't see how this my position is in conflict with this verse. The verse is clearly talking about those who have been given the civic duty to judge. This is, as I was saying, clearly different than an individual believer judging another believer's relationship with God. Romans 14:13, " . . let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way." Verse 1: "Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters." Verse 10: "You, then, why do you judge yoru brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat."
Interestingly, the passage you cite from Deuteronomy also says that Israelites (the chosen people) are to be judged equally with aliens. In other words, there should not be discrimination!!. Also, I believe that aliens (perhaps we could read unbelievers here), were not subject to all of the laws that the Israelites were subject, even if they were living among the Israelites. Certainly, not all those who would classify themselves as homosexuals are unbelievers. It seems to me that those that do should not be subject to theocratically based laws, unless there is some other compelling reason to do so. Those that are believers, I think have the same freedom as any believer, to address the issue with their God as they see fit, again, unless there is some compelling other reason. I personally do not see any compelling societal reason to disallow gay marriage.
Jer. 9:24 " . . . but let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the Lord, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth for in these I delight."
Yet again, it is the Lord who is exercising justice. Notice also he is exercising kindness. There is nothing here that indicates it is our place as believers to judge others in their walk with God, or that believers are allowed to judge unbelievers in a discriminatory way.
The verses in your picture are worth comment.
I Cor. 14:33 seems to me to be irrelevant to the discussion. It is talking about behaviour of prophets in church. I think it is a big stretch to say that this implies their should never be any disagreement among believers, if I am understanding what you are trying to say here. Clearly, Paul allows that there can be "debatable matters," and this does not necessarily have to constitute "confusion."
I can see your point in the other verses. Obviously allowing gays to marry would be against what many people believe is God's will. Yes, I would agree that there are passages of scripture which imply that homosexuality is a sin, although I am not completely convinced that some of these passages do not suffer from translation problems.
Even if we assume that homosexuality is against God's will, that still does not settle what we should do from a legal standpoint, in my opinion. There are many things that are listed as sinful in the Bible, some only in the old testament, that we do not have laws against.
On what basis are we going to decide which of these a society, which includes non-Christians, should make illegal and which not?
Post #9
Why should we assume this? Homosexuality is determined by the developmental processes that occur during embryogenesis, under the influence of genes and hormones. If people are born this way, and if human development is under the guidance of God (as some say), or even if humans were designed by God so that biological mechanisms beyond anyone's control can result in homosexuality, then it seems that it is God's will that certain people be homosexual. It is God's will that some people have blue eyes, and that some people have congenital abnormalities that we can see. Does God tell us to discriminate against them? If not, why not? It's the same thing: God's will about how people are born.micatala wrote:Even if we assume that homosexuality is against God's will...
Panza llena, corazon contento
Post #10
No according to the confession from your mouth. Glue them back in where they belong.micatala wrote:OK. Here are the verses I have supposedly ripped out of the Bible, according to your opinion.
Job 15: 5 For thy mouth uttereth thine iniquity, and thou choosest the tongue of the crafty. (uttereth: Heb. teacheth) 6 Thine own mouth condemneth thee, and not I: yea, thine own lips testify against thee.
You said NOT TO JUDGE . . . .get your fable straight! That is contrary to the SCriptures that say TO JUDGE RIGHTEOUSLY!
There is no assumption. It is clearly stated that God discriminated AGAINST Esau before he was born.Jose wrote:Why should we assume this? Homosexuality is determined by the developmental processes that occur during embryogenesis, under the influence of genes and hormones. If people are born this way, and if human development is under the guidance of God (as some say), or even if humans were designed by God so that biological mechanisms beyond anyone's control can result in homosexuality, then it seems that it is God's will that certain people be homosexual. It is God's will that some people have blue eyes, and that some people have congenital abnormalities that we can see. Does God tell us to discriminate against them? If not, why not? It's the same thing: God's will about how people are born.micatala wrote:Even if we assume that homosexuality is against God's will...
Romans 9: for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, 12 it was said unto her, (1) The elder shall serve the younger. (1) Ge 25:23) 13 Even as it is written, (1) Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. (1) Mal 1:2 f)
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, (1) I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. (1) Ex 33:19) 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, (1) For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth. (1) Ex 9:16) 18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? 21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? 22 What if God, (1) willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: (1) Or although willing ) 23 (1) and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
