scientists and religion

[P.S.]

Hi all!
I a scientist and I came to the US from Europe several years ago. What I noticed here is that a large proportion of Americans (and scientist) are religious - much larger % from what I am used to. That, by itself, is not a problem for me - I have many religious friends (and I considered myself 'sort of' religious in my old country, although I see that I am far from religious for American standards), but I cannot understand how my fellow scientist can claim that 'homosexuality comes from demons possessing ones body' and in the same time accepting all wonders of modern medicine to help someone who, for example, has diabetes, instead of simply trying to remove that 'demon' from the person with prayers or whatever is the right way to do it (I honestly do not know). To correct myself - I do not say that being homosexual is a disease, I am just trying to say that when I try to reason with any 'real' Christian so far that some people are born with non-mainstream sexual preference and that there are some evidence how it can happen and they cannot be 'cured' - I get 'the Bible says..." type of answer. However, accepting scientific evidence for many other phenomena is ok. If we use artificial insemination to get a child - God blessed us with a baby not our doctor!!!! These are just few things that get on my mind at this late hour. Again, it is acceptable for me to hear these contradictions from none-scientific population, but scientist - that is quite unacceptable, if you ask me!

[Zzyzx]

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Hi PS,

Welcome to the forum – from another who has studied, applied and taught science (now long past tense).

What I observed among religious people involved in science is cognitive dissonance – “the feeling of uncomfortable tension which comes from holding two conflicting thoughts in the mind at the same time.�

I recognized “uncomfortable tension� in colleagues who were trained in science and indoctrinated in religion (or “taught�). Some appeared to be “Weekend Christians� (devout family men attending church on Sunday – dedicated scientists during the week); others seemed to avoid thinking about the obvious conflicts between religious “explanations� and scientific knowledge.

Those who appeared to me as best adjusted / comfortable tended to be quite liberal in beliefs – perhaps envisioning “god� to be something OTHER than the “jealous, vindictive old man in the sky� promoted by many organized, commercial religious sects. Although I seldom discussed such matters, they seem to distance themselves from most or all “supernatural� and “miracle� claims -- even to the point of doubting that the “resurrection� was a literal or physical event – but suggesting instead that it was “spiritual� (whatever that might mean).


I have not explored (but am mildly curious about) how religious medical doctors reconcile the obvious conflict between religious statements (concerning disease, for example) and proven scientific understanding of causes (and perhaps cures). It would be interesting to know the thoughts of an experienced MD who happened to be homosexual – and who was devoutly religious. Would it even be possible for such a person to be a Fundamentalist?

A couple of MDs I have known personally appeared to “pay lip service� to “gods� when talking to religious people (patients?) -- perhaps to give comfort or show camaraderie – or just to show respect for the person’s religious beliefs. However, I do not pretend to know their actual position regarding religion or their motivations.



Fundamentalist / Literalist religious “leaders� often express dislike for or disrespect of science and education – with claims that they “lead people away from god� (and an anti-intellectual, anti-science, anti-education attitude can be observed occasionally in these threads by those attempting to defend fundamental beliefs and worship practices).

The “anti-s� appear to be attempting to keep the “gaps� open for “god� – meaning that “god� is credited with being responsible for anything unknown – and as understanding of nature increases, the “god of the gaps� shrinks.

US society in general exhibits, in my opinion, cognitive dissonance on large scale – claiming to believe incredible bible stories on one hand and almost glorifying science and technology on the other – using every product of S&T while claiming that “goddidit� – claiming to “follow the bible� but ignoring most of the “rules� while keeping only select few (if even that).

Perhaps US attitudes reflect an immature society (very young by European or Asian standards). Given more time to mature, the US might follow the pattern of Spain – and move from overwhelmingly religious in orientation to being much more secular. How rapidly did that change occur in Spain?

One outcome of the current and ongoing crisis in Catholicism may be to accelerate trends away from religion by emphasizing defects in dogma and by exposing contrasts between preaching and the practices (more cognitive dissonance).


Z

[JoeyKnothead]

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Hi PS,

Welcome to the forum – from another who has studied, applied and taught science (now long past tense).

What I observed among religious people involved in science is cognitive dissonance – “the feeling of uncomfortable tension which comes from holding two conflicting thoughts in the mind at the same time.�

I recognized “uncomfortable tension� in colleagues who were trained in science and indoctrinated in religion (or “taught�). Some appeared to be “Weekend Christians� (devout family men attending church on Sunday – dedicated scientists during the week); others seemed to avoid thinking about the obvious conflicts between religious “explanations� and scientific knowledge.

Those who appeared to me as best adjusted / comfortable tended to be quite liberal in beliefs – perhaps envisioning “god� to be something OTHER than the “jealous, vindictive old man in the sky� promoted by many organized, commercial religious sects. Although I seldom discussed such matters, they seem to distance themselves from most or all “supernatural� and “miracle� claims -- even to the point of doubting that the “resurrection� was a literal or physical event – but suggesting instead that it was “spiritual� (whatever that might mean).


I have not explored (but am mildly curious about) how religious medical doctors reconcile the obvious conflict between religious statements (concerning disease, for example) and proven scientific understanding of causes (and perhaps cures). It would be interesting to know the thoughts of an experienced MD who happened to be homosexual – and who was devoutly religious. Would it even be possible for such a person to be a Fundamentalist?

A couple of MDs I have known personally appeared to “pay lip service� to “gods� when talking to religious people (patients?) -- perhaps to give comfort or show camaraderie – or just to show respect for the person’s religious beliefs. However, I do not pretend to know their actual position regarding religion or their motivations.



Fundamentalist / Literalist religious “leaders� often express dislike for or disrespect of science and education – with claims that they “lead people away from god� (and an anti-intellectual, anti-science, anti-education attitude can be observed occasionally in these threads by those attempting to defend fundamental beliefs and worship practices).

The “anti-s� appear to be attempting to keep the “gaps� open for “god� – meaning that “god� is credited with being responsible for anything unknown – and as understanding of nature increases, the “god of the gaps� shrinks.

US society in general exhibits, in my opinion, cognitive dissonance on large scale – claiming to believe incredible bible stories on one hand and almost glorifying science and technology on the other – using every product of S&T while claiming that “goddidit� – claiming to “follow the bible� but ignoring most of the “rules� while keeping only select few (if even that).

Perhaps US attitudes reflect an immature society (very young by European or Asian standards). Given more time to mature, the US might follow the pattern of Spain – and move from overwhelmingly religious in orientation to being much more secular. How rapidly did that change occur in Spain?

One outcome of the current and ongoing crisis in Catholicism may be to accelerate trends away from religion by emphasizing defects in dogma and by exposing contrasts between preaching and the practices (more cognitive dissonance).

Z

This, ladies and germs, is why I seek out the man's posts.

[P.S.]

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Perhaps US attitudes reflect an immature society (very young by European or Asian standards). Given more time to mature, the US might follow the pattern of Spain – and move from overwhelmingly religious in orientation to being much more secular. How rapidly did that change occur in Spain?

Z

I couldn't agree more, although I always hesitate to say that because it might sound disrespectful (I am a foreigner here, after all). However, even when the society is immature, scientists should be progressive and be the leaders in free thinking - don't you think? Honestly, I am surprised that we have one of the best research here with all that religion making obstacles for true advancement. I guess many people are good in pretending that they can live double life...

[Zzyzx]

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I couldn't agree more, although I always hesitate to say that because it might sound disrespectful (I am a foreigner here, after all).

I often consider myself an “outlander� or “foreigner� even though I was born, raised, educated and lived my entire life in the US. What I say is OFTEN regarded as “disrespectful� or “unpatriotic� or “TRATOR� by the fanatically patriotic, “my country, right or wrong� crew (patriotic fundamentalists are similar to religious fundamentalists in that regard – and are often the same people).

However, even when the society is immature, scientists should be progressive and be the leaders in free thinking - don't you think?

Many people who study and apply science, engineering, architecture, law, medicine, education (as opposed to schooling) ARE “progressive� – in that they do not accept the limitations which organized, commercial religion attempts to inflict upon society.

Honestly, I am surprised that we have one of the best research here with all that religion making obstacles for true advancement.

Just as demonstrated in these threads, fundamental religion is NOT very effective with people who are critical or analytical thinkers – people who are educated rather than schooled or indoctrinated.

In my college / university teaching career (many years ago) I observed many people begin to question the tales they were told since infancy about invisible “gods�. When shown rational explanations for natural phenomena, MANY rejected the old “gods of the gaps� ideas with which they were indoctrinated (or “taught�).

I guess many people are good in pretending that they can live double life...

Many DO live “double lives�. I KNOW some of them. Cognitive dissonance. They may not be comfortable – but they seem to survive in a religion-dominant society.

[P.S.]

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I couldn't agree more, although I always hesitate to say that because it might sound disrespectful (I am a foreigner here, after all).

I often consider myself an “outlander� or “foreigner� even though I was born, raised, educated and lived my entire life in the US. What I say is OFTEN regarded as “disrespectful� or “unpatriotic� or “TRATOR� by the fanatically patriotic, “my country, right or wrong� crew (patriotic fundamentalists are similar to religious fundamentalists in that regard – and are often the same people).

Thanks! I usually do not 'do' forums, but I was so lonely yesterday. I feel every time I say what I think I risk to be accused for hurting religious feelings of my colleagues or, even worse, to discriminate them for their beliefs, while I feel I am constantly discriminated for mine (or lack of it). Well, to tell the truth, and this I can say only anonymously, I would not choose MD to cure me who claims that demons can possess ones body! I do not mind if a buss driver thinks that, but my PCP should be on the side of logic and science. That is why I simply do not ASK (don't ask - don't tell )
I miss times when I just came to the US and did not know that Americans are so religious and that it is a very touchy subject (well, many subjects are touchy here). That was the biggest surprise for me, I have to say. After some time, I learned to keep my mouth shut. Higher my rank is, more risky is to say the obvious. I used to say many things about religion that I would not dare now. I still discuss some issues now and then (I cannot help it! That is a part of being intellectual!) and I am sure it causes quite a stir, but it is only few % of what I would actually say. For example, I have a lab mate that prays every day before she starts working and every time before some big experiment! Jesus is mentioned at least 100 times a day. I sometimes just cannot deal with it (I work right next to her) and ones I joked that Jesus has a lot of work in Haiti right now and she should not disturb him for small issues like this. The joke did not go well... Ok, no joking about religion (and many other things) for me. I feel I live double life now.

[Zzyzx]

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Thanks! I usually do not 'do' forums, but I was so lonely yesterday.

I know the feeling. As a resident of the infamous US Bible Belt – roughly corresponding to the former slave states or Confederate States – I am surrounded by “Bible Thumpers� of the Fundamentalist variety.

I feel every time I say what I think I risk to be accused for hurting religious feelings of my colleagues or, even worse, to discriminate them for their beliefs, while I feel I am constantly discriminated for mine (or lack of it).

Yup – don’t talk down about gods or religion because that is “sacred� – but the religious are free to denigrate non-believers (or “heathens� or “infidels� or “the unsaved� or “those going to hell�)

Well, to tell the truth, and this I can say only anonymously, I would not choose MD to cure me who claims that demons can possess ones body!

I would openly and vigorously object – and find another health care provider – if any medical person even suggested anything about “demons�. Witch doctors and voodoo practitioners (and some Christian “exorcists�) make such irrational statements.

I do not mind if a buss driver thinks that, but my PCP should be on the side of logic and science.

Even a bus driver who believes in demonic possession could be a threat to life, s/he might run off a cliff to avoid a “demon� or to run over one. I would seriously question their sanity – and CERTAINLY not trust their judgment.

That is why I simply do not ASK (don't ask - don't tell)

My position is different than yours so I am free to ask – and to decide against association if the answers indicate irrationality or incoherence (i.e., “eat up with religion� – and believing that “demons� influence human lives).

I miss times when I just came to the US and did not know that Americans are so religious and that it is a very touchy subject (well, many subjects are touchy here).

It is interesting that you observe “many subjects are touchy here�. I agree.

That was the biggest surprise for me, I have to say. After some time, I learned to keep my mouth shut. Higher my rank is, more risky is to say the obvious.

Condolences

I used to say many things about religion that I would not dare now. I still discuss some issues now and then (I cannot help it! That is a part of being intellectual!) and I am sure it causes quite a stir, but it is only few % of what I would actually say.

I understand

For example, I have a lab mate that prays every day before she starts working and every time before some big experiment! Jesus is mentioned at least 100 times a day.

Asking for favors from “gods� is quite common – even though there is no evidence that “praying� produces results any different from chance acting alone (and certainly no evidence that asking for favors produces desired results with any degree of certainty).

It is amusing that people on opposite sides of any issue (even war) may “pray� to the same “gods� for success for themselves.

I sometimes just cannot deal with it (I work right next to her) and ones I joked that Jesus has a lot of work in Haiti right now and she should not disturb him for small issues like this. The joke did not go well...

My situation allows me to let people know in no uncertain terms that I do not do “god talk�. Even here in the Bible Belt, it is pleasant that nearly everyone who knows me at all well totally avoids “god talk� AT me – and usually in my presence.

I don’t make it an issue unless pressed or unless there is attempt to recruit me to worship their gods. But most catch on rather quickly.

It helps that I have been “employment free� for thirty years – and not in need of income.

Ok, no joking about religion (and many other things) for me. I feel I live double life now.

Yes, many people take their religious beliefs and rituals VERY seriously. They actually seem to believe that their “eternity� depends upon which “gods� they worship and which rituals they practice.