Who's winning?

[asajoseph]

Ok, first of all, apologies for the confrontational title - I try not to view apologetics as a direct head on confrontation, even if it does sometimes come to that. But I have a few questions, for each to answer.

1. Would you describe yourself as a theist, or non-theist?

2. Elaborate on the above answer as you feel appropriate.

3. Do you feel that theists or non-theists TEND to win/gain the upper hand in most of the debates here?

4. Do you believe that Christians, or non-Christians tend to win/gain the upper hand in most debates here?

5. In which topics do the Christians tend to gain the upper hand most often? In which do the non-Christians gain the upper hand most often? (Elaborate world-view groups as you feel appropriate).

6. Which group of people do you find most graceful in their debateing technique?

Asa

[Zarathustra]

1. Would you describe yourself as a theist, or non-theist?

Non-theist

2. Elaborate on the above answer as you feel appropriate.

It depends on my mood (as much as I hate to say that), it sways from weak agnostic, weak atheist to weak agnostic, strong athiest.

3. Do you feel that theists or non-theists TEND to win/gain the upper hand in most of the debates here?

I think these debates usually go on indefinitley, until one side tires of it.

4. Do you believe that Christians, or non-Christians tend to win/gain the upper hand in most debates here?

Neither, as I said, it's usually a deadlock, most people are hard-set in their beliefs.

5. In which topics do the Christians tend to gain the upper hand most often? In which do the non-Christians gain the upper hand most often? (Elaborate world-view groups as you feel appropriate).

It all depends on the representatives of the respecitve world-views...

6. Which group of people do you find most graceful in their debateing technique?

Again, it all depends on the representatives. Though, I do find that Christians tend to reply on "Because He is God" "Because He can" "Because He loves us" "Because the Bible says so" etc, a little too much...but, that's just an athiest talking, anyway so its not the most objective opinion

But, I don't think most people come here to make converts, as I said, just to explore their beliefs, etc.

[ST88]

1. Would you describe yourself as a theist, or non-theist?
Non-theist.

2. Elaborate on the above answer as you feel appropriate.
Philosophically, I am agnostic. I have no religion.

3. 4. 5. (same question) Do you feel that theists or non-theists TEND to win/gain the upper hand in most of the debates here?
It depends on what you mean by win. I tend to think of debates not as fist-fights that benefit only the members of the debate. If there is a third-party watching the debate, he/she can use his/her own scorecard to keep track of points gained and lost, if desired. As such, I don't keep track.

6. Which group of people do you find most graceful in their debateing technique?
Groups here can't be generalized by a mere sampling of their members. Each group has its grace.

[asajoseph]

Zarathustra,

Though, I do find that Christians tend to reply on "Because He is God" "Because He can" "Because He loves us" "Because the Bible says so" etc, a little too much...

Fascinating opinion. And if you ask me, that's the mark of a beaten apologist.

The 'Bible says so, so it's true' is an argument that can only be used by Christians, for Christians (who already accept the Bible). I'm guessing that those of us that hear it every sunday to resolve doctrinal issues might be tempted to use it as a last-gasp apologetic. To the atheist however, who does not hold the Christian assumptions, one of the largest being of course that the Bible is in some way true, this argument sounds pretty absurd.

An atheist equivalent? Hmmm... I think I hear the words 'there's no evidence for X, Y, or Z' faaaaar too often. This is usually a sign of someone conflating evidence with proof, and often used, I feel, as a last gasp atheistic argument. Now, I'm sure that we all recognise that evidence can exist for contradictory and absurd statements, it's just that most of the time, a conclusive certain proof cannot be constructed out of the evidence.

I believe that evidence can certainly be presented for the Christian world view (and by this, I'm talking about the life, death and resurrection of Christ, and also the existence of God - things like Creationism and inerrancy are far more sketchy). Faith comes in (drawing a certain conclusion beyond the facts) when we draw the conclusion that God exists, based on the evidence in front of us.

Does this mean that I'm saying that Christianity cannot be conclusively proven? Yes. Does it mean I'm saying that it cannot be evidenced? No, I draw a distinction between these two statements. The evidence was enough to convince me to make my first leap of faith, and belief, a believe which has since been confirmed, and now rests almost solely on my own (yes, subjective) experience of God. So do I use my own subjective experience as an apologetic? No, certainly not - it's enough to convince me, but I can't prove it to anyone else. What I DO do here is occasionally step into a conversation and show where evidence can be provided, that MIGHT encourage someone to make the same leap of faith I did. Will I ever be able to produce enough to convince a strict empiricist? No. Probably not.

Anyway, I don't know quite where these ramblings came from. Ah, yes, I was commenting on your most insightful reply.

Many thanks,

Asa

[Zarathustra]

An atheist equivalent? Hmmm... I think I hear the words 'there's no evidence for X, Y, or Z' faaaaar too often.

This may just be a technicality, but that is more a signature of the strong atheist, strong agnostic: "there is no proof of God; therefore, there God cannot exist; therefore, I don't believe in God"

The rest of it (especially evidence vs proof) I absolutely agree with.

[bdbthinker]

1. Would you describe yourself as a theist, or non-theist?

non-theist

2. Elaborate on the above answer as you feel appropriate.

agnostic, atheist . I don't have knowledge of a god, therefore I don't believe in one.

3. Do you feel that theists or non-theists TEND to win/gain the upper hand in most of the debates here?

I think most people on this board are pretty level headed and we all want basically to get to the same thing: the truth. on who get's the upper hand, this is kind of vague...i'll say 50/50 for now.

4. Do you believe that Christians, or non-Christians tend to win/gain the upper hand in most debates here?

see above.

5. In which topics do the Christians tend to gain the upper hand most often? In which do the non-Christians gain the upper hand most often? (Elaborate world-view groups as you feel appropriate).

In the Debate area, i think Christians have the upperhand when the argument consists of debating withing the parameters of the bible. i think the non-christians have it in the evolution vs. creationism area.

6. Which group of people do you find most graceful in their debateing technique?

graceful? that's kind of subjective
seriously, i guess it depends on what you mean...like style? the ability to gracefully dodge?
i'll stay neutral on this for now

[asajoseph]

Interesting views, many thanks.

Anyone else?

[otseng]

1. Would you describe yourself as a theist, or non-theist?

Theist

2. Elaborate on the above answer as you feel appropriate.

Christian

3. Do you feel that theists or non-theists TEND to win/gain the upper hand in most of the debates here?

4. Do you believe that Christians, or non-Christians tend to win/gain the upper hand in most debates here?

I would say it's about even. There are excellent debaters here from all camps. There are a few times there is a KO, however, more often the fight would last many rounds with each opponent giving the other some good blows. And it would be up to the judges to make a call as to who won.

5. In which topics do the Christians tend to gain the upper hand most often? In which do the non-Christians gain the upper hand most often? (Elaborate world-view groups as you feel appropriate).

Again, it's about even.

6. Which group of people do you find most graceful in their debateing technique?

People from all camps have demonstrated civility. I do not find any particular group dominating the market on gracefulness.

Let me make an additional comment since I have the floor. I am very impressed with the quality of debaters here. To be honest, many times things get said that just sails unhindered over my head. I also appreciate the level of civility that most members have demonstrated. Being in several debate forums over the years, I know how rare it is to engage in a civil debate. I am pleased to see how people can respect each other even though opinions would be totally opposite to each other. I've seen more than once people debate hard on a subject, but then walk away as friends.

So, I would like to say thanks to all the people here that help make this place a civil and intellectual place to debate.

[Dilettante]

1. Would you describe yourself as a theist, or non-theist?

I would describe myself as an agnostic theist.

2. Elaborate on the above answer as you feel appropriate.

What I mean is that, while I like the idea of a just God and my heart is inclined to believe that such a God has a relatively high probability of existing (maybe 75% chance?), my head confesses that I don't know, and that it's probably impossible for me to know anything about such a God.


3. Do you feel that theists or non-theists TEND to win/gain the upper hand in most of the debates here?

I don't particularly feel one group tends to gain the upper hand. It's undecided (so the upper hand goes to the agnostics, I guess). In any case I'm not worried about who wins debates, but about who is closer to the truth. Those are two different things.

4. Do you believe that Christians, or non-Christians tend to win/gain the upper hand in most debates here?
See answer above.

5. In which topics do the Christians tend to gain the upper hand most often? In which do the non-Christians gain the upper hand most often? (Elaborate world-view groups as you feel appropriate).

See above.

6. Which group of people do you find most graceful in their debating technique?

I can't generalize. There are graceful people in most groups.