Open Discussion - Scientific Aspects of The Shroud of Turin

[joer]

Vanillin - first mention in Web Page on Rogers information.

http://www.shroudstory.com/faq/index.htm

Madder root dyes (Alizarin and Purpurin), gum, a hydrous oxide mordant, cotton fibers and significant levels of vanillin (4-hydroxy-3-methoxybenzaldehyde) have been found in the carbon 14 sample area and not anywhere else on the Shroud. The startling conclusion is that what was radiocarbon dated was chemically unlike the rest of the cloth. Thus it was an invalid sample.

Chemical and Texitile composition of the tested area
http://www.shroudstory.com/faq/turin-shroud-faq-05.htm

The non-image cloth typically shows weak fluorescence (upper right). When image appears on the cloth, it quenches the fluorescence and gives it a brown color (see "Hands" below). The small, triangular, white area is where the Raes sample was cut in 1973. The radiocarbon sample was cut upward from there about 1 cm to the right of the seam and about 7 cm long. The area where the radiocarbon sample was taken is relatively dark, a fact that is not the result of dirt, image color, or scorching. The cloth is much less fluorescent in that area, brightening into more typical fluorescence to the right. The photograph proves that the radiocarbon area has a different chemical composition than the main part of the cloth. This was obviously not considered before the sample was cut.

Raes and radiocarbon yarn show colored encrustations on their surfaces. Some sections of medulla contain some of the material, showing that it had been able to flow by capillary attraction as a liquid. The encrustation is not removed by nonpolar solvents, but it swells and dissolves in water.



This photomicrograph shows several fibers from the center of the radiocarbon sample in water. The gum is swelling and slowly detaching from the fibers. Many red alizarin/mordant lakes can be seen, and yellow dye is in solution in the gum. Several cotton fibers are visible, a situation unique to the radiocarbon samples.

There was absolutely no encrustation on either the Holland cloth or fibers from the main part of the Shroud.

Al Adler had found large amounts of aluminum in yarn segments from the radiocarbon sample, up to 2%, by energy-dispersive x-ray analysis. I found that the radiocarbon sample was uniquely coated with a plant gum (probably gum Arabic), a hydrous aluminum oxide mordant (the aluminum found by Adler), and Madder root dye (alizarin and purpurin). Nothing similar exists on any other part of the Shroud. The photomicrograph shows several fibers from the center of the radiocarbon sample in water. The gum is swelling and slowly detaching from the fibers. Many red alizarin/mordant lakes can be seen, and yellow dye is in solution in the gum. Several cotton fibers are visible, a situation unique to the Raes and radiocarbon samples.

The radiocarbon sampling area had been dyed to match the old part of the cloth. The sample chosen for dating was totally invalid for determining the true age of the Shroud.
----------------------------
Most people associate "Vanillin" with the dating process of the shroud. But very few consider how it is used to determine the tempurature of the image making process.
----------------------------
The kinetics of vanillin elimination from lignin that determine a low­ temperature image-formation processhttp://www.shroudstory.com/faq/turin-shroud-faq-08.htm

Glucose decomposes by a multi-step process. As with all of the other saccharides, the first is a dehydration/condensation reaction. The condensation processes yield carbon-carbon double bonds, which ultimately lead to color formation. Bruce Waymack of Philip Morris measured the kinetics of the first reaction as E = 23.9 kcal/mole and Z = 1.26 X 107 s-1. The low-molecular-weight polysaccharides are much less stable than cellulose.

I measured the kinetics of vanillin elimination from lignin as E = 23.6 kcal/mol and Z = 3.7 X 1011 s-1. It is much less stable than crystalline cellulose.

Results of kinetics studies support a low­temperature image-formation process. The temperature was not high enough to change cellulose within the time available for image formation, and no char was produced.
--------------------------------
These following two discussions on Vanillin and Lignin are the one skeptics over react to as a dating process to determine the Shroud's Date. But we can discuss them openly here without concern of debate ramifications of the discussion. Let's do it!
--------------------------------
Are there any other ways than radiocarbon to date the Shroud of Turin?
http://www.shroudstory.com/faq/turin-shroud-faq-13.htm

Some compounds like lignin change composition with time. The lignin in the Shroud does not give the normal microchemical test for vanillin, indicating that it is quite old. Measurements of the chemical rate for loss of vanillin estimates an age for the Shroud of more than 1300 years, depending on storage conditions.

Lignin
http://www.shroudstory.com/faq/turin-shroud-faq-14.htm

Lignin is a structural polymer that is found in all plants, including flax. Linen is bleached in an effort to remove as much lignin as possible, but some lignin always remains in linen. Lignin slowly ages with the loss of vanillin (4-hydroxy-2-methoxybenzaldehyde). A very sensitive microchemical test exists for the detection of traces of vanillin. It is easy to detect vanillin in modern lignin, it is harder to find in Medieval linen, and no test can be obtained from the few Shroud fibers that are still available for study. The lignin in samples from the Dead Sea scrolls (ca. AD 70) does not give the vanillin test. This observation would suggest that the linen of the Shroud is very old, casting doubt on the accuracy of the 1988 date. Observations on the lignin could be confirmed with samples from the "restoration"; however, such samples are jealously guarded in Turin.
----------------------------
Let's have some productive sharing my friends.

Knowledge is worth the effort. Wisdom is worth the experience. Resolution of the tensions of competing ideas leads to learning and growth. - joer 5/3/2009

[Goat]

Vanillin - first mention in Web Page on Rogers information.

http://www.shroudstory.com/faq/index.htm

Madder root dyes (Alizarin and Purpurin), gum, a hydrous oxide mordant, cotton fibers and significant levels of vanillin (4-hydroxy-3-methoxybenzaldehyde) have been found in the carbon 14 sample area and not anywhere else on the Shroud. The startling conclusion is that what was radiocarbon dated was chemically unlike the rest of the cloth. Thus it was an invalid sample.

Un. No. That is not true. If you read the Mc Crone papers, he took samples from 32 different locations (as mapped out in his paper) with sticky tape. He reported
that there was extranious cotton fibers (not woven into the fabric btw), and gum arabic all over the shroud. In addition, the fibers were cleaned of any extraneous
materials, so they had the clean fibers. Please note, those are materials that would be typically found in an artist workshop in the medivael times. This is what is known as 'a claim that has been refuted, but the refuting has been ignored by the believers'. This claim is in direct contradiction to the earlier report of McCrone. McCrone's photographs of his samples show this is inaccurate.

Chemical and Texitile composition of the tested area
http://www.shroudstory.com/faq/turin-shroud-faq-05.htm

The non-image cloth typically shows weak fluorescence (upper right). When image appears on the cloth, it quenches the fluorescence and gives it a brown color (see "Hands" below). The small, triangular, white area is where the Raes sample was cut in 1973. The radiocarbon sample was cut upward from there about 1 cm to the right of the seam and about 7 cm long. The area where the radiocarbon sample was taken is relatively dark, a fact that is not the result of dirt, image color, or scorching. The cloth is much less fluorescent in that area, brightening into more typical fluorescence to the right. The photograph proves that the radiocarbon area has a different chemical composition than the main part of the cloth. This was obviously not considered before the sample was cut.

Raes and radiocarbon yarn show colored encrustations on their surfaces. Some sections of medulla contain some of the material, showing that it had been able to flow by capillary attraction as a liquid. The encrustation is not removed by nonpolar solvents, but it swells and dissolves in water.

For dating purposes, that is irrelevent for the C14 dating materials.

This photomicrograph shows several fibers from the center of the radiocarbon sample in water. The gum is swelling and slowly detaching from the fibers. Many red alizarin/mordant lakes can be seen, and yellow dye is in solution in the gum. Several cotton fibers are visible, a situation unique to the radiocarbon samples.

Again, this is incorrect e, since cotton fibers were reported by McCrone eariler, all over the shroud. There is not evidence , despite the claims of Shroud story (the fact they are misreporting about the cotton fibers is indicitive of their honesty and accuracy). You see part of the cleaning process on the fiber to make sure they are not goign to be testing the extraneoius material. Misreprenting photographs is
not a honest technique.

There was absolutely no encrustation on either the Holland cloth or fibers from the main part of the Shroud.

Al Adler had found large amounts of aluminum in yarn segments from the radiocarbon sample, up to 2%, by energy-dispersive x-ray analysis. I found that the radiocarbon sample was uniquely coated with a plant gum (probably gum Arabic), a hydrous aluminum oxide mordant (the aluminum found by Adler), and Madder root dye (alizarin and purpurin). Nothing similar exists on any other part of the Shroud. The photomicrograph shows several fibers from the center of the radiocarbon sample in water. The gum is swelling and slowly detaching from the fibers. Many red alizarin/mordant lakes can be seen, and yellow dye is in solution in the gum. Several cotton fibers are visible, a situation unique to the Raes and radiocarbon samples.

Well, that is not true according to the earlier McCrone work, which sticky tape from 32 seperate areas in the shroud. Didn't Adler read McCrones earlier work?

The radiocarbon sampling area had been dyed to match the old part of the cloth. The sample chosen for dating was totally invalid for determining the true age of the Shroud.

This is the claim by the shroud believers, yet they do not have the proper evidence for that. THey do make a lot of claims that are incorrect, and say things are 'unique to the c14 sections' that McCrone had earlier reported. I consider that dishonest.

---------
Most people associate "Vanillin" with the dating process of the shroud. But very few consider how it is used to determine the tempurature of the image making process.
----------------------------
The kinetics of vanillin elimination from lignin that determine a low­ temperature image-formation processhttp://www.shroudstory.com/faq/turin-shroud-faq-08.htm

Glucose decomposes by a multi-step process. As with all of the other saccharides, the first is a dehydration/condensation reaction. The condensation processes yield carbon-carbon double bonds, which ultimately lead to color formation. Bruce Waymack of Philip Morris measured the kinetics of the first reaction as E = 23.9 kcal/mole and Z = 1.26 X 107 s-1. The low-molecular-weight polysaccharides are much less stable than cellulose.

I measured the kinetics of vanillin elimination from lignin as E = 23.6 kcal/mol and Z = 3.7 X 1011 s-1. It is much less stable than crystalline cellulose.

Results of kinetics studies support a low­temperature image-formation process. The temperature was not high enough to change cellulose within the time available for image formation, and no char was produced.
--------------------------------
These following two discussions on Vanillin and Lignin are the one skeptics over react to as a dating process to determine the Shroud's Date. But we can discuss them openly here without concern of debate ramifications of the discussion. Let's do it!
--------------------------------
Are there any other ways than radiocarbon to date the Shroud of Turin?
http://www.shroudstory.com/faq/turin-shroud-faq-13.htm

Some compounds like lignin change composition with time. The lignin in the Shroud does not give the normal microchemical test for vanillin, indicating that it is quite old. Measurements of the chemical rate for loss of vanillin estimates an age for the Shroud of more than 1300 years, depending on storage conditions.

Lignin
http://www.shroudstory.com/faq/turin-shroud-faq-14.htm

Lignin is a structural polymer that is found in all plants, including flax. Linen is bleached in an effort to remove as much lignin as possible, but some lignin always remains in linen. Lignin slowly ages with the loss of vanillin (4-hydroxy-2-methoxybenzaldehyde). A very sensitive microchemical test exists for the detection of traces of vanillin. It is easy to detect vanillin in modern lignin, it is harder to find in Medieval linen, and no test can be obtained from the few Shroud fibers that are still available for study. The lignin in samples from the Dead Sea scrolls (ca. AD 70) does not give the vanillin test. This observation would suggest that the linen of the Shroud is very old, casting doubt on the accuracy of the 1988 date. Observations on the lignin could be confirmed with samples from the "restoration"; however, such samples are jealously guarded in Turin.
----------------------------
Let's have some productive sharing my friends.

Knowledge is worth the effort. Wisdom is worth the experience. Resolution of the tensions of competing ideas leads to learning and growth. - joer 5/3/2009

The Vanillin method is what is known as 'psuedoscience'. The technique was made up by Rogers in his home lab, and has not been tested in the real world. There is a formula he came up with, but no testing on real world samples to show that 'formula' is correct. THere is no callibration of this tecnhique, nor is there any testing in the real world to see if it is valid at all.. he just did it a few times in his lab and make claims.

If you look at his claims, he dated the shroud to be 150 bc, with a +/- of 850 years. The fact there is such a hugh percentage of error, that should raise a lot of little red flags.

There is a lot of selective ignoring of evidence from the shroud committee, as well as the use of invalid claims about the evidence. The continued use of the Vanillin claims, when it has been shown to be false shows the integretity of shroud committe that is pushing it.

[Wyvern]

The problem with using vanillin as a dating technique is that the decomposition of vanillin is a chemical process as opposed to the c14 test which is a measure of radioactive decay. If you are going to use a chemical process to date something you had better know the conditions of the item you are trying to date since chemical processes are influenced by heat, light and biological infestation. If you look up the CAS number of vanillin it states that it is readily open to photodegradation and as I hope we all know heat something up and it tends to decompose faster. As we know from the history of the shroud for many decades it was put on display one day a year, it was draped on the outside of the place it was stored. It is also known that the shroud was exposed to fire at least once not to mention until recently fire was the only means of illumination. Biological decomposition is the wild card in all of this, under certain conditions up to 75% of the vanillin in a sample was decomposed in only 6 days. These three and I'm sure I could come up with a lot more is why you don't use chemical decomposition as a dating method.

[joer]

Hi Goat.

Thanks for joining me here. It's pleasure to discuss this in a non-debate environment.

I can appreciate all of the points you bring up but I would like to read the sources of you information. And more specifically if you can give it to the excerpts surrounding the ideas you presented so I can focus in on it with out a long search for the information.

I'm more than willing to review the sources for your data. As long as I don't have to read a voluminous amount of material to find one line or one paragraph that has the material of your claim.

Can you help me out?

The Brown paper I shared with you. Notes the existence of cotton fibers on the shroud in other areas. BUT IT HAS ONLY been found and confirmed being woven into the fabric in the area used for c-14 testing. Brown's and Rogers' photos confirm that. Additionally Brown's photos confirm the dye applied to make the patched area appear as the other.

And I'm not belittling the Medieval artisan's work as it was good enough to fool the scientific panel who selected the area for the C-14 sample into believing it was a representative piece of the shroud when it wasn't.

But I'd like to see the evidence you have to compare to the evidence I've found so far.

As far as I'm concerned this is still an open investigation. I'd like to see more of McCrone's work and others if what your saying is based on other evidence also.

I'd like to see that which convinces you of your position and see if it engenders the same conviction in me.

Thanks Goat.

[joer]

The problem with using vanillin as a dating technique is that the decomposition of vanillin is a chemical process as opposed to the c14 test which is a measure of radioactive decay. If you are going to use a chemical process to date something you had better know the conditions of the item you are trying to date since chemical processes are influenced by heat, light and biological infestation. If you look up the CAS number of vanillin it states that it is readily open to photodegradation and as I hope we all know heat something up and it tends to decompose faster. As we know from the history of the shroud for many decades it was put on display one day a year, it was draped on the outside of the place it was stored. It is also known that the shroud was exposed to fire at least once not to mention until recently fire was the only means of illumination. Biological decomposition is the wild card in all of this, under certain conditions up to 75% of the vanillin in a sample was decomposed in only 6 days. These three and I'm sure I could come up with a lot more is why you don't use chemical decomposition as a dating method.

Hi Wyvern. thanks for the reply. You wrote:

If you are going to use a chemical process to date something you had better know the conditions of the item you are trying to date since chemical processes are influenced by heat, light and biological infestation.

Some of these issue were address in this article and it appears that long-term autocatalytic decomposition is in check. During the fire some damage would have been done. But the process autocatalytic decomposition would have stopped after the Shroud returned to it's normal temperature.

How do you know that the fire of AD 1532 did not start a long-term autocatalytic decomposition of the Turin Shroud?
HERE

Based on the facts of chemistry and current storage conditions, the Shroud of Turin is not now and has never been in imminent danger of catastrophic autocatalytic decomposition. The "restoration" of 2002 was based on an erroneous understanding of chemistry.

Autocatalytic chemical reactions are those in which the rate increases as the amounts of reactants decrease, i.e., while the materials are reacting. The most important single factor in predicting effects is the temperature. When the temperature changes, the rate changes. The only severe heating episode the Shroud has suffered was during the fire of 1532. Any autocatalytic decomposition that occurred then has long since stopped as the Shroud is stored at normal temperatures.

The fundamental chemical-rate equation that describes an autocatalytic process is the following:

where ? is the fraction reacted at any specific time, t. The derivative, d? ?dt, is the rate of the reaction. E is the "Arrhenius activation energy," and Z is the "Arrhenius pre-exponential." Each applies only to a single specific, consistent reaction being studied. The value of the "rate constant," k is different at each specific temperature: It is a constant only at one temperature, and it applies only to one specific reaction. The values of E and Z are determined from a large number of k measurements at different temperatures.. Predictions of the Shroud's expected lifetime can not be made on the basis of a single rate constant. Observations made during a scorching event can not be applied to rates at normal temperatures.

E, Z, and k are the most important values in a discussion of rates and associated lifetimes of materials. All of these values have fundamental meaning in the chemical reaction. R is the "gas constant (1.9872)," a universal constant that applies to many disparate physical and chemical processes, and it is known with great accuracy and precision. T is the absolute temperature, expressed in degrees Kelvin (0K = -273.2?C). The exponents p and q allow the prediction of the position of the maximum rate in an autocatalytic process, i.e., the amount reacted at the maximum rate - at constant temperature. Exponents higher than 2 are extremely rare.

Examples of simple and autocatalytic rate curves are shown in the figure. Notice that the rate increases with time in the autocatalytic curve, at constant temperature, until it reaches a maximum reaction rate. Then the rate decreases. However, the initial rate at any temperature is much lower than the maximum rate. The chemical decomposition rate of cellulose is essentially zero at room temperature. Most long-term degradation of cellulose that is observed in archaeological contexts is caused by microbiological attack.

When cellulose is decomposing autocatalytically at high temperature, the rate can be returned to its initial value by cooling.

Reaction rates in solids, especially crystalline solids like cellulose, are much lower than the values for the same material in a solution or melt, because a crystalline lattice is stabilized by its ordered structure. The crystal structure is called "fibrillar" in materials like linen.

A major cause for autocatalysis in cellulose decomposition is the destruction of crystalline order when the material is heated above its melting point, about 260ºC. With the exception of the fire of 1532, the Shroud has never faced this danger. Secondary, chemical autocatalysis is discussed below. Rates in the normal cellulose solid phase are essentially zero in the absence of acids, bases, short-wavelength light, or water and microorganisms.

When the crystalline order of cellulose is destroyed by heating, the cellulose melt is also chemically autocatalytic. The possibility for chemical autocatalysis in linen depends on the products of cellulose decomposition. Feigl and Anger [Feigl, F. and Anger, V., 1966, Spot Tests in Organic Analysis, Elsevier Pub. Co., New York.] describe the effects of heating cellulose as follows: "When cellulose is heated it decomposes and the resulting superheated steam reacts with unchanged cellulose to produce hexoses, which in turn hydrolyze to give hydroxymethylfurfural." The only important chemical catalyst for the autocatalytic degradation of cellulose at high temperatures is superheated steam. Superheated steam does not exist at room temperature. There is no "memory effect." The Shroud should be as stable at room temperature as any other sample of linen. The Shroud was in no danger of autocatalytic decomposition.

The decomposition rate of a crystalline solid depends on crystal perfection. When crystals are put under stress, they develop high-free-energy defects, and decomposition is much faster at the defects than it is in the parent material. If autocatalysis were a real problem for the Shroud, significant differences should have been observed around the stressed and strained stitching of the patches. STURP observed those areas, and there was no sign of accelerated autocatalysis, indeed there is no sign of any autocatalysis. Autocatalysis is not a real hazard for the Shroud.

More detailed studies have shown that the major or secondary products of the thermal decomposition of cellulose are formaldehyde, furfural (2-furaldehyde), hydroxymethylfurfural (5-hydroxymethyl-2-furaldehyde), levulinic acid (4-oxopentanoic acid), and 3-pentenoic-?-anhydride. None of these are a significant catalyst for the autocatalytic decomposition of linen. Indeed, formaldehyde, furfural, and hydroxymethylfurfural are reducing agents, antioxidants. Furfural inhibits the growth of molds and yeasts. Scorched areas are less likely to show microbiological attack.

Observations and descriptions of the Shroud through the 470 years since the fire of 1532 do not support fear of catastrophic decomposition of the cloth. There is absolutely no evidence for attack on the cloth by acids, bases, or microorganisms. Samples from all parts of the Shroud were tested for pH by STURP. No impurities that could start autocatalytic decomposition were found, confirming what was observed through the 470 years of history.

If Shroud deterioration is still a worry, one practical way to slow the rate is to keep it cold. That also has the advantage of reducing microbiological attack. As in the case of the use of "inert" atmospheres, storage at reduced temperature should carefully be considered. Too low a temperature could cause physical stress and might cause fibers to fracture. It would probably cause the thin coating of image color on the fibers to be loosened in some areas.

As a rule of thumb according to the Arrhenius expression, rates of normal reactions are increased by a factor between two and three for each 10?C increase in temperature. Some moderate cooling could have a significant effect on prolonging the life of the Shroud. Severe freezing could damage the cloth and image.

Than these decompositions studies were perform to determine temperature change in relation to the image formation process.
http://www.shroudstory.com/faq/turin-shroud-faq-08.htm

How fast does cellulose (linen) decompose (produce a color) compared with the impurities found on the Shroud of Turin?

J. L. Banyasz, S. Li, J. Lyons-Hart, and K. H. Shafer [Fuel 80 (2001) 1757-1763] studied real-time evolution of formaldehyde, hydroxyacetaldehyde, CO, and CO2 from pure microcrystalline cellulose by EGA/FTIR (effluent gas analysis and Fourier transform infrared spectrometry). They detected 10 compounds simultaneously in the gas phase by FTIR. The cellulose decomposition is very complex. The quantity of formaldehyde produced is a function of heating rate, so decomposition mechanisms change depending on how fast you heat the cellulose. That is important in considering image-formation mechanisms and long-term stability vis-à-vis scorching processes.

According to A. G. W. Bradbury, Y. Sakai, and F. Shafizadch, [J. Appl. Polym. Sci. (1979) 23, pp. 3271-3280], the induction process in cellulose can be neglected above 300ºC. They observed two major decomposition mechanisms with the following constants:

E1 = 47.3 kcal/mole Z1 = 3.2 X 1014 s-1

E2 = 36.6 kcal/mole Z2 = 1.3 X 1010 s-1

They assumed that 65% of the products in the char-forming chain of reactions went to gas.

Glucose decomposes by a multi-step process. As with all of the other saccharides, the first is a dehydration/condensation reaction. The condensation processes yield carbon-carbon double bonds, which ultimately lead to color formation. Bruce Waymack of Philip Morris measured the kinetics of the first reaction as E = 23.9 kcal/mole and Z = 1.26 X 107 s-1. The low-molecular-weight polysaccharides are much less stable than cellulose.

I measured the kinetics of vanillin elimination from lignin as E = 23.6 kcal/mol and Z = 3.7 X 1011 s-1. It is much less stable than crystalline cellulose.

Results of kinetics studies support a low­temperature image-formation process. The temperature was not high enough to change cellulose within the time available for image formation, and no char was produced.

Thanks Wyvern.

[Wyvern]

Hi Joer


The article you used was about cellulose decomposition but what I was getting at is the specious use of vanillin as a dating method. As was stated vanillin is much less stable than cellulose which means it is much more prone to be affected by temperature, light and biological activity. Until a relatively short time ago the shroud was not in a controlled environment which means it was exposed to the vagaries of the environment except for rain and even that would cause an increase in humidity. The point being that if you are going to use chemical decomposition as a dating technique you have to know what the conditions the item in question was stored under during its entire life. This is why radioactive decay is used, it is not reliant on local conditions, it is based on a physical constant.

[Goat]

Hi Joer


The article you used was about cellulose decomposition but what I was getting at is the specious use of vanillin as a dating method. As was stated vanillin is much less stable than cellulose which means it is much more prone to be affected by temperature, light and biological activity. Until a relatively short time ago the shroud was not in a controlled environment which means it was exposed to the vagaries of the environment except for rain and even that would cause an increase in humidity. The point being that if you are going to use chemical decomposition as a dating technique you have to know what the conditions the item in question was stored under during its entire life. This is why radioactive decay is used, it is not reliant on local conditions, it is based on a physical constant.

Because the environment can so dratically change things, that is why using chemical decomposition is not a valid way to date something, even if it is sellulose decompostion, or vanillin, or any other specific chemical.

That is why the Ray Rogers section of dating is not accepted by the scientific community as a whole.. it is just plain wrong.

[joer]

Hi Joer

The article you used was about cellulose decomposition but what I was getting at is the specious use of vanillin as a dating method. As was stated vanillin is much less stable than cellulose which means it is much more prone to be affected by temperature, light and biological activity. Until a relatively short time ago the shroud was not in a controlled environment which means it was exposed to the vagaries of the environment except for rain and even that would cause an increase in humidity. The point being that if you are going to use chemical decomposition as a dating technique you have to know what the conditions the item in question was stored under during its entire life. This is why radioactive decay is used, it is not reliant on local conditions, it is based on a physical constant.

I hear what you are saying Wyvern. But the objection you are making is a qualitative one. And it rightly exposes variables that are difficult to measure and accurately calculate. That’s why I included the second part in the cellulose decomposition study and that is the decomposition of much less stable vanillin. Rogers writes:

I measured the kinetics of vanillin elimination from lignin as E = 23.6 kcal/mol and Z = 3.7 X 1011 s-1. It is much less stable than crystalline cellulose.

While you and Goat talk about the variables qualitatively. Rogers calculates in the “variableness� of the variables quantitatively and that’s WHY he gets such a wide range in the possible date of the shroud. But while a skeptic writer emotionalizes this result as “only� a “whopping� 1,700 years.

that method can offer only an accuracy range of a whopping 1,700 years (contrasted with about 150 years by radiocarbon dating).

Science doesn’t emotionalize it. It’s scientifically and quantitatively determined to be within that 1700 year range. 700CE – 1000 BCE Period. No emotion. That’s the accurate range because of the variables you BOTH speak of. SEE: http://www.shroudstory.com/faq/turin-shroud-faq-13.htm

Some compounds like lignin change composition with time. The lignin in the Shroud does not give the normal microchemical test for vanillin, indicating that it is quite old. Measurements of the chemical rate for loss of vanillin estimates an age for the Shroud of more than 1300 years, depending on storage conditions.

On the other hand Nickell writes, (contrasted with about 150 years by radiocarbon dating). And as you point out Wyvern. “This is why radioactive decay is used, it is not reliant on local conditions, it is based on a physical constant�

BUT THAT’s NOT THE PROBLEM with the C-14 testing. The Problem is the poorly planned and executed sample selection for the radiocarbon testing.

How do you know that the radiocarbon sample was not valid for dating the Shroud of Turin?
http://www.shroudstory.com/faq/turin-shroud-faq-05.htm

So with the possibility of a more accurate radiocarbon testing with a proper sample selection. the vanillin issue takes a back seat in the debate as far as I'm concerned.

It's the demand and planning for a NEW C-14 test on a on better planned and scrutinized Shroud sample selection, that should be front and center. If they could take 3 samples from three different areas and test each of them at the three different C-14 testing sites. We may be able to finally have a more accurate date of the Shroud. Whatever that might be.

The thing is to get it right. IMHO. Thanks my friends.

Thank You Goat and Wyvern for your critical and accurate responses.

[Goat]

It's the demand and planning for a NEW C-14 test on a on better planned and scrutinized Shroud sample selection, that should be front and center. If they could take 3 samples from three different areas and test each of them at the three different C-14 testing sites. We may be able to finally have a more accurate date of the Shroud. Whatever that might be.

The thing is to get it right. IMHO. Thanks my friends.

Thank You Goat and Wyvern for your critical and accurate responses.

You do realise that the shroud committee has primed the entire world to say that any future C-14 testing would also be invalid, since they claim that the shroud is in an environment since 2003 that added contaminaites to the shroud in an effort to preserve it?

The Shroud committee knows future testing will give the same results.. and they do not want to remove their belief.

Now, could you please respond to the point made by this article, which has been brought up to you before

http://c14.arch.ox.ac.uk/embed.php?File=shroud.html


The research continues because the effect of the specific storage conditions of the Turin Shroud have yet to be reproduced by John Jackson's team. It remains possible, though not at all likely, that in these specific conditions there are reactions which provide significant contamination. There are also other possible types of contaminant, and it it could be that one, or some combination of these, might mean that the Shroud is somewhat older than the radiocarbon date suggests. It is important to realise, however, that only if some enriched contaminant can be identified does it become credible that the date is wrong by 1000 years. As yet there is no direct evidence for this - or indeed any direct evidence to suggest the original radiocarbon dates are not accurate.

[joer]

It's the demand and planning for a NEW C-14 test on a on better planned and scrutinized Shroud sample selection, that should be front and center. If they could take 3 samples from three different areas and test each of them at the three different C-14 testing sites. We may be able to finally have a more accurate date of the Shroud. Whatever that might be.

The thing is to get it right. IMHO. Thanks my friends.

Thank You Goat and Wyvern for your critical and accurate responses.

You do realise that the shroud committee has primed the entire world to say that any future C-14 testing would also be invalid, since they claim that the shroud is in an environment since 2003 that added contaminaites to the shroud in an effort to preserve it?

The Shroud committee knows future testing will give the same results.. and they do not want to remove their belief.

Now, could you please respond to the point made by this article, which has been brought up to you before

http://c14.arch.ox.ac.uk/embed.php?File=shroud.html


The research continues because the effect of the specific storage conditions of the Turin Shroud have yet to be reproduced by John Jackson's team. It remains possible, though not at all likely, that in these specific conditions there are reactions which provide significant contamination. There are also other possible types of contaminant, and it it could be that one, or some combination of these, might mean that the Shroud is somewhat older than the radiocarbon date suggests. It is important to realise, however, that only if some enriched contaminant can be identified does it become credible that the date is wrong by 1000 years. As yet there is no direct evidence for this - or indeed any direct evidence to suggest the original radiocarbon dates are not accurate.

No problem Goat I agree with Ramsey's Conclusion in the same article you presented.

There is a lot of other evidence that suggests to many that the Shroud is older than the radiocarbon dates allow and so further research is certainly needed. It is important that we continue to test the accuracy of the original radiocarbon tests as we are already doing. It is equally important that experts assess and reinterpret some of the other evidence. Only by doing this will people be able to arrive at a coherent history of the Shroud which takes into account and explains all of the available scientific and historical information.

Christopher Ramsey (March 2008)

BTW. Have you found any of your source material that supports your assertions for me? I'd really like to read it. Thanks. I wrote:

But I'd like to see the evidence you have to compare to the evidence I've found so far.

As far as I'm concerned this is still an open investigation. I'd like to see more of McCrone's work and others if what your saying is based on other evidence also.

I'd like to see that which convinces you of your position and see if it engenders the same conviction in me.