Human morality v Chimpanzee morality

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McCulloch
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Human morality v Chimpanzee morality

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Post by McCulloch »

LA Times wrote:Santino knew the humans were coming. So each morning, he trolled for stones and fashioned concrete disks to be stashed in strategic locations until it was time to hurl them at his pesky visitors.

As a chimpanzee, Santino wasn't thought to be capable of anticipating events in a way that so closely resembled human behavior. But cognitive psychologist Mathias Osvath became convinced after watching the 30-year-old primate repeat his routine for a decade at a Swedish zoo, according to a report published this week in the journal Current Biology.

"Such planning implies advanced consciousness and cognition traditionally not associated with animals," wrote Osvath, research director at the Lund University primate research station in Gavle, Sweden. In human evolution, "similar forms of stone manipulation constitute the most ancient signs of culture."

Santino began throwing stones at zoo visitors in 1994, soon after he became the dominant male chimp at Furuvik Zoo in Gavle. For three years, the episodes were infrequent. Then he began bombarding his guests on a regular basis, prompting his keepers to investigate.

They conducted stakeouts and observed Santino scooping rocks from the moat in his island enclosure and organizing them into neat piles. Sometimes he would break off pieces of concrete from the center of the island and fashion them into "manufactured missiles," according to the study.

Hours later, he would aim them at zoo visitors in a burst of activity described by one of his keepers as "a hailstorm."

While assembling his caches, Santino was invariably calm. While unleashing them, he was agitated.

"This is what makes this special," Osvath said in an interview. "He is planning for a future psychological state."

Psychology professor Roger Fouts, co-director of the Chimpanzee and Human Communication Institute at Central Washington University in Ellensburg, Wash., said Santino's behavior was notable but not altogether different from that of wild chimps observed in Tanzania and the Ivory Coast. Those animals are known to gather tools for future use, such as heavy rocks that are handy for cracking nuts.

At his own institute, he said, a 33-year-old chimp named Tatu uses American Sign Language to ask about "bird meat" in anticipation of Thanksgiving and "candy tree" before Christmas.

Craig Stanford, co-director of the Jane Goodall Research Center at USC, said he had watched Tanzanian chimps collect sticks to fish for termites even when they were far from a termite mound. In his view, Santino's behavior may be as much a sign of boredom as intelligence.

"His whole life is spent in a small enclosure with very few outlets for his creativity," Stanford said.
The Guardian wrote:Osvath interviewed zookeepers at Furuvik and examined records of the chimp's behaviour. He found that Santino only gathered rocks and made concrete missiles when the zoo was closed. He gave up the behaviour completely when the zoo was shut over the winter.

The zookeepers recently decided that an operation was the best way of controlling Santino's behaviour.

"They have castrated the poor guy. They hope that his hormone levels will decrease and that will make him less prone to throw stones. He's already getting fatter and he likes to play much more now than before. Being agitated isn't good for him," said Osvath.
Question for debate: In this story, which primates were showing moral behavior? The one who attempted to protect his tribe from an invasion of privacy and the humiliation of being on display for amused onlookers. Or the ones who imprison such sentient beings for their own entertainment and rewards such caring behavior with castration?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

as11018
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Post #2

Post by as11018 »

Even a dog can learn to sit.

Chimps are animals.

zepper899
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Re: Human morality v Chimpanzee morality

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Post by zepper899 »

McCulloch wrote: Question for debate: In this story, which primates were showing moral behavior? The one who attempted to protect his tribe from an invasion of privacy and the humiliation of being on display for amused onlookers. Or the ones who imprison such sentient beings for their own entertainment and rewards such caring behavior with castration?
They both seem to be acting for a sense of pride as the creature in control. Although the exact actions take very different forms, I find it interesting that the 'human' actions seem to be for the same end as the chimpanzee's actions.

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Post #4

Post by Furrowed Brow »

as11018 wrote:Even a dog can learn to sit.
Agreed
Chimps are animals.
Agreed.

Humans sit and throw stones, therefore humans are animals..... agreed?

As for the chimp, he looks a lot like my nephew.

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Post #5

Post by McCulloch »

as11018 wrote:Even a dog can learn to sit.
A dog can learn to follow commands. A dog can learn to herd sheep. A dog can learn to guide a blind person through traffic.
as11018 wrote:Chimps are animals.
Chimps are animals, right. They are not plants. In fact, they are mammals. They are primates and they are apes.

Humans are animals, too. We are not plants. In fact, we are mammals. We are primates and we are apes.

Now that we have established some basic facts that we can all agree on, please let us know why either of these facts are relevant to the debate.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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