Michael the Archangel, a characterization of Jesus in heaven?

[Eloi]

We, Jehovah's Witnesses, consider that Jesus is also the Archangel Michael. It is not just our belief, as many biblical scholars of other religious denominations have considered the matter in the same way.

Can this idea be demonstrated with the Bible? If that is not the case, the idea will not even be part of the Jehovah's Witness body of doctrines. In no way would we consider as belief something that did not have sufficient biblical support.

I would like to talk about that matter on this topic, as there is a lot of information that I would like to share about it. The subject of debate is: can it be demonstrated with the Bible that Jesus is the Archangel Michael? My answer is that you can do that, and in passing the topic I will try to prove it.

[Eloi]

Did you know that the Greek LXX in Is. 9:6 calls Jesus "Angel of Grand Counsel"?

ὅτι παιδίον ἐγεννήθη ἡμῖν,
υἱὸς ἐδόθη ἡμῖν,
οὗ ἡ ἀρχὴ ἐγενήθη ἐπὶ τοῦ ὤμου αὐτοῦ,
καὶ καλεῖται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Μεγάλης βουλῆς ἄγγελος·
ἄξω γὰρ εἰρήνην ἐπὶ τοὺς ἄρχοντας καὶ ὑγείαν αὐτῷ.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Eloi in post #81]
In addition, who other than Jesus has the ranking that "Michael" has in the 12th chapter of Daniel? Is there anyone else that could be called "the great Prince?" Who else can mediate between Israel and others of God's children than Jesus Christ? "Michael" isn't mentioned anywhere in Matthew 24, for example, as he would be if he was another person than Jesus. For Michael to stand up for God's people is a big deal, and is what Jesus is said to do in that chapter. Yet "Michael" is not mentioned. That is because it is the name Jesus had in heaven before he came here, and the name he took again upon going back to heaven.

[Eloi]

Paul said:

1 Thess. 4:16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.

Again: it is: "the Lord himself (...) with an archangel voice". If Jesus were not the archangel, then taking the archangel's voice would mean that an archangel would have more of a voice than he did.

On the other hand, if the archangel were inferior to Jesus and were lending his voice to him, it would be like saying that a lion is meowing like a cat.

Therefore, Jesus has to be the archangel according to those words of Paul. In fact, an archangel's voice commanding God's heavenly army is loud enough to represent Jesus calling the dead to life.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Paul said:

1 Thess. 4:16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.

Again: it is: "the Lord himself (...) with an archangel voice". If Jesus were not the archangel, then taking the archangel's voice would mean that an archangel would have more of a voice than he did.

Christ descends with the trumpet of God as well, but that does not mean that He is God.

On the other hand, if the archangel were inferior to Jesus and were lending his voice to him, it would be like saying that a lion is meowing like a cat.

This is not accurate. Even human kings can be announced with a commanding call (someone announcing their arrival or their presence/appearance), sometimes even with a trumpet or some other means of alerting people to their impending arrival or appearance. The person giving that announcement, that commanding call, is always subordinate to the king.

Why would Christ receive less honor than a human king?


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Eloi]

There is not any "announcement" in the event of Jesus resurrecting the dead talked about in 1 Thess. 4:16 BUT Jesus talking ... like here:

John 11:43 When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice: “Lazarus, come out!”

The "trumpet" is God's because the power of Jesus comes from God, the voice is of Jesus because it is about the authority he has received ... so, he gives the order.

More wishfull thinking: they don't want the preposition εν to mean what it really means here: with.

This is what the inspired Paul says to Thessalonians

οτι αυτος ο κυριος __ because the Lord himself
εν κελευσματι __ with a commanding call
εν φωνη αρχαγγελου __ with an archangel’s voice
και εν σαλπιγγι θεου __ and with God’s trumpet
καταβησεται απ ουρανος __ will descend from heaven

[Eloi]

To David, about his son Solomon:

2 Sam. 7:12 When your days come to an end and you are laid to rest with your forefathers, then I will raise up your offspring after you, your own son, and I will firmly establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my name, and I will firmly establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will become his father, and he will become my son. (...)

On Psal. 2:7 about the king in Jerusalem:

Psal. 2: 6 Saying: “I myself have installed my king
On Zion, my holy mountain.”
 7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah;
He said to me: “You are my son;
Today I have become your father.

On Mark 1:11 about Jesus, the man:

Mark 1:11 And a voice came out of the heavens: “You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.”

___________________________________________________________________________

Heb. 1:5 For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”? And again: “I will become his father, and he will become my son”?

So, the question: to which one of the angels
... and the answer: TO NONE OF THE ANGELS ... because that was said TO MEN about another man: Jesus.

Matt. 17:4 Then Peter said to Jesus: “Lord, it is fine for us to be here. If you wish, I will erect three tents here (...)” 5 While he was still speaking, look! a bright cloud overshadowed them, and look! a voice out of the cloud said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved. Listen to him.” 6 At hearing this, the disciples fell facedown and became very much afraid.

[onewithhim]

Peace to you,

Paul said:

1 Thess. 4:16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.

Again: it is: "the Lord himself (...) with an archangel voice". If Jesus were not the archangel, then taking the archangel's voice would mean that an archangel would have more of a voice than he did.

Christ descends with the trumpet of God as well, but that does not mean that He is God.

On the other hand, if the archangel were inferior to Jesus and were lending his voice to him, it would be like saying that a lion is meowing like a cat.

This is not accurate. Even human kings can be announced with a commanding call (someone announcing their arrival or their presence/appearance), sometimes even with a trumpet or some other means of alerting people to their impending arrival or appearance. The person giving that announcement, that commanding call, is always subordinate to the king.

Why would Christ receive less honor than a human king?


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Why would Christ receive less honor than, as you believe, an individual named Michael? You are giving someone else the glory and reputation that only Christ deserves. It is Christ/Michael who stands up for the people in the last days which usher in the Great Tribulation as described by Daniel. Otherwise, where is Michael mentioned in Matthew chapter 24? He is not, as he should be if he was another individual besides Christ. So "Michael" is not mentioned in the Gospels because Christ was still using the name "Jesus." When he went back to heaven he resumed his former name (see Revelation 12:7). Why would another person be given credit for what Christ is definitely involved with? If Michael is not Jesus, he is being given the position as important as Jesus' and should be mentioned along side Jesus in, e.g., Matthew 24 and Luke 21, etc.

[Eloi]

Another example showing that the voice of the archangel Paul speaks of in 1 Thess. 4:16 is Jesus' own voice, it is in these words of Jesus himself:

John 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Heb. 1:5 For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”? And again: “I will become his father, and he will become my son”?

So, the question: to which one of the angels
... and the answer: TO NONE OF THE ANGELS ... because that was said TO MEN about another man: Jesus.

Matt. 17:4 Then Peter said to Jesus: “Lord, it is fine for us to be here. If you wish, I will erect three tents here (...)” 5 While he was still speaking, look! a bright cloud overshadowed them, and look! a voice out of the cloud said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved. Listen to him.” 6 At hearing this, the disciples fell facedown and became very much afraid.

You're correct that the answer to that question is 'to none of the angels', but it was not to men that God said these words about another man. Matthew 17 is not the reference for the Hebrews 1:5 quote (see instead Psalm 2:7). God is indeed speaking TO HIS SON (To Christ) when He said these words, as Hebrews makes clear at 5:5,

5So also Christ did not take upon Himself the glory of becoming a high priest, but He was called by the One who said to Him: “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father.”




Peace again to you.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

Paul said:

1 Thess. 4:16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.

Again: it is: "the Lord himself (...) with an archangel voice". If Jesus were not the archangel, then taking the archangel's voice would mean that an archangel would have more of a voice than he did.

Christ descends with the trumpet of God as well, but that does not mean that He is God.

On the other hand, if the archangel were inferior to Jesus and were lending his voice to him, it would be like saying that a lion is meowing like a cat.

This is not accurate. Even human kings can be announced with a commanding call (someone announcing their arrival or their presence/appearance), sometimes even with a trumpet or some other means of alerting people to their impending arrival or appearance. The person giving that announcement, that commanding call, is always subordinate to the king.

Why would Christ receive less honor than a human king?


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Why would Christ receive less honor than, as you believe, an individual named Michael?

He would not and does not.

Christ is the beloved Son of God, the heir of all God's Kingdom, the King, superior to all (except God Himself).

Michael is an arkangel. One of the chief princes. Loyal to Christ (and so also to God), serving Christ (and so also God).

You are giving someone else the glory and reputation that only Christ deserves.

I am not.

It is Christ/Michael who stands up for the people in the last days which usher in the Great Tribulation as described by Daniel.

We already discussed the meaning of the word 'stand up' earlier in this thread. Michael taking some form of action does not mean that He is Christ.

Otherwise, where is Michael mentioned in Matthew chapter 24?

Michael is one of the angels (even an arkangel is an angel) who serves Christ.

He is not, as he should be if he was another individual besides Christ. So "Michael" is not mentioned in the Gospels because Christ was still using the name "Jesus." When he went back to heaven he resumed his former name (see Revelation 12:7).

You said this earlier and it was shown to be in error. (Post 59 viewtopic.php?p=1059506#p1059506 )


Christ is called by His SAME name (Jaheshua, though written as [Jesus]) in Revelation. He refers to HIMSELF by His name (Jaheshua):

“I, [Jesus], have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” Revelation 22:16


Both Michael and Christ are written about in Revelation. Both Michael and Christ are written about in Jude. These are two individual beings. One (Michael) serves the other (Jaheshua).

Peace again to you.