Science AND Genesis

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DaveD49
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Science AND Genesis

Post #1

Post by DaveD49 »

This is an offshoot from the "Science vs. Genesis" topic but it covers a different main premise. That topic suggested a conflict between the two. My topic shows where there is agreement. I think that everyone would agree that it would be extremely rare for any 4000 year old document, especially one that existed for thousands of years in oral form before it was written down, to agree with ANY modern scientific concept. The very first chapter of the first book of the Bible can be seen to agree with five of them. (Not only that, but the very first Hebrew word of the first chapter of the Bible reveals a stunning prophecy which came true 2000 years later, but that is another subject.) The five modern scientific concepts and theories are the concept of a slowly developing Earth, the concept of "super-continents" such as Pangea, abiogenesis, and evolution. None of these concepts were familiar to the people of the age when it was written.

Slowly forming Earth
Now the earth was formless and void, there was darkness over the deep, and God's spirit hovered over the water. God said 'Let there be light', and their was light.
(Gen1:2-3)

Imagine for a minute that you were sitting on the planet at the time it was first developing from slowly settling dust, moisture and stone. You would be able to see nothing, because the dust and moisture in the sky would block out all to sun's rays. Over a loooong period of time eventually as more dust settled the light of the sun could be seen even though you still could not see the sun itself. I have read where scientists have said that during this period of time it rained for over 10,000 years. We are in what the Bible calls the first day. The sun and the moon do not become visible until the fourth day. (BTW the Hebrew word interpreted as "day" can also be interpreted as "age" or "eon". Look it up.)

Super-Continents
God said, 'Let the waters under the heavens come together in a single mass and let dry land appear'. And so it was. God called the dry land 'earth' the the mass of waters 'seas'
(Gen1:9-10)

As more dust settled, dry land appeared starting in one place with one land mass.

Abiogenesis

This is a discredited scientific theory about the origins of life from the primordial goo, or "dirt", but it seems that the Bible agrees with it.
God said, 'Let the earth produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants, and fruit trees...
(Gen 1:11)
God said, Let the waters teem with living creatures, and let birds fly about the earth within the vault of heaven.
(Gen 1:20)
God said, Let the earth produce every kind of living creature: cattle, reptiles, and every kind of wild beast.
Gen 1:24

Note that in each case it does not say that God "zapped" them into being, but rather caused the EARTH or the WATERS to produce them. Note also the Bible also states

Evolution

Note please that in general the order of appearance of various living things corresponds to an evolutionary line-up. Simple plants, sea life, "great sea monsters", reptiles, mammals and man.

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Re: Science AND Genesis

Post #71

Post by TRANSPONDER »

AquinasForGod wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:41 pm [Replying to DaveD49 in post #1]

This kind of fundamentalism is bad for Christianity, so I am going to go through each one of these.
Slowly forming Earth
Now the earth was formless and void, there was darkness over the deep, and God's spirit hovered over the water. God said 'Let there be light', and their was light.
(Gen1:2-3)

Imagine for a minute that you were sitting on the planet at the time it was first developing from slowly settling dust, moisture and stone. You would be able to see nothing, because the dust and moisture in the sky would block out all to sun's rays. Over a loooong period of time eventually as more dust settled the light of the sun could be seen even though you still could not see the sun itself. I have read where scientists have said that during this period of time it rained for over 10,000 years. We are in what the Bible calls the first day. The sun and the moon do not become visible until the fourth day. (BTW the Hebrew word interpreted as "day" can also be interpreted as "age" or "eon". Look it up.)
First of all, it does not say on day 4 the sun and moon and stars became visible. It says on day 4 he PLACED the sun the moon and the stars in the firmament. The same firmament that birds fly in. BTW, people in Mesopotamia believed the whole universe was the shape of a snowglobe. The earth was the disk, and the heavens was the dome over it. Birds flew where stars are. This is why there are legends of some birds that could fly to the sun.

The person that wrote this verse would know that the absence of light is darkness, so if there was no light, since he believed God created light, then he would naturally describe the earth as being in a state of darkness. There is no reason to think he had modern-day understanding, which he clearly did not.
Super-Continents
God said, 'Let the waters under the heavens come together in a single mass and let dry land appear'. And so it was. God called the dry land 'earth' the the mass of waters 'seas'
(Gen1:9-10)

As more dust settled, dry land appeared starting in one place with one land mass.
Notice he thinks the dry land was made to appear after the waters came together. This is not how it happened scientifically. Also, this verse says nothing about continents. It says dry land as if there was just one of them. This would have been his view. They did not know there were other huge land masses, so they spoke of one land mass. Had he understood that Pangea broke apart into continents, he would have worded this differently. He makes no mention of one mass becoming many.
Abiogenesis

This is a discredited scientific theory about the origins of life from the primordial goo, or "dirt", but it seems that the Bible agrees with it.
God said, 'Let the earth produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants, and fruit trees...
(Gen 1:11)
God said, Let the waters teem with living creatures, and let birds fly about the earth within the vault of heaven.
(Gen 1:20)
God said, Let the earth produce every kind of living creature: cattle, reptiles, and every kind of wild beast.
Gen 1:24

Note that in each case it does not say that God "zapped" them into being, but rather caused the EARTH or the WATERS to produce them. Note also the Bible also states
This was the view back then. They believed the earth produced plants. It was a simple observation. It rained, the sun beamed, then he earth produced plants. Why did it do that? God must have caused it. It doesn't say the waters produced fish, but let the water teem with living creatures. It doesn't say how the living creatures came to be but that they came to be in the water. People back then would have no clue how water creatures came to be, so if they believed in God, they would believe God caused them to be in the water.

Notice, that the creatures in the water began to exist in the water, which contradicts evolution.

He goes on to say the same with birds. They begin to exist in the sky. That is clearly not true. Also, I doubt he believed birds began to exist in the sky for they saw birds on the ground and in nests.

Where did land animals come from if water creatures began to exist in the water? They must have begun to exist on the earth.
Evolution

Note please that in general the order of appearance of various living things corresponds to an evolutionary line-up. Simple plants, sea life, "great sea monsters", reptiles, mammals and man.
Not really. Genesis says plants day 3 and water life day 5. This is incorrect. Plants originated in the water according to evolution theory.
This all looks good. It comes down to accepting or denying science; though of course the Genesis - literalists will try to use or adapt science if it appears to support the Bible. For example, the super -continent of Gonwanaland is used as 'science agreeing one area of dry land'. Though Genesis with a mention of the Euphrates appears to have in mind the whole area of Egypt to Mesopotamia as the original land mass. Even though they surely know of Europe, India and Africa further beyond Egypt.

Just one point - "Notice, that the creatures in the water began to exist in the water, which contradicts evolution." In fact the first creatures Did appear in the water - the fossil evidence says. First cells, plant and animal cells first, then groups of cells (graptolites) early molluscs found in pre - cambrian strata, then the 'creatures' which were molluscs and crustaceans and, towards the end of the Cambrian, the first fish, and that was before plants had even got onto the land. It does seem that Life did originate in the sea or the Chemical Hot and sour soup that was the sea back then, and evolved in the sea and we are all still 90% sea today.

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Re: Science AND Genesis

Post #72

Post by DaveD49 »

Diogenes wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 12:20 am
DaveD49 wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:55 pm.... The very first chapter of the first book of the Bible can be seen to agree with five of them....
Slowly forming Earth
No. The Bible says the Earth was created in one day:
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.... And there was evening and there was morning, the first day (Genesis 1:1-5).
Super-Continents
Wrong again. Genesis claims the Earth is 6000 years old. It took millions of years for the super continent to become separated into the distinct continents of today.
Why do so many atheists say that they do not accept the Bible but then insist that it can only be interpreted when read literally as a fundamentalist would? I hate to burst your bubble but the vast majority of Christians are NOT fundamentalist. Yes, fundamentalism existence in the U.S. is strong, but world-wide it represents only 10-15% of all Christianity. Just the fact that the Hebrew word used for "day" can also be interpreted as "age" or "eon" should be the end of that discussion, but you also overlook that Genesis 1 was a poem. Have you ever seen as poem that read like a science book or a history book? A poem generally uses figurative and flowery language. Genesis 1 is no different. Also keep in mind that anytime you translate any text from a foreign language layers of meaning are sometimes lost.

In as far as the super-continent that is exactly the point I was making. If the seas were in one pool, then logically so was the land in one major continent. Also, seeing that you are insisting on a strict interpretation of the Bible can you point out please where it literally says that the Earth is 6000 years old?

As I pointed out the story in Genesis 1 can be seen to agree with with five different modern scientific concepts. You want to insist that I cannot do that because I am not taking everything literally. If you want to refute my argument than refute what I actually said instead of insisting I must interpret the Bible literally. Are you a Biblical expert?

Abiogenesis
This is a discredited scientific theory....
Wrong again. As others have pointed out, the theory of abiogenesis is not discredited.
If you already know that others have pointed this out then you already know that I have answered this question.

Evolution

Note please that in general the order of appearance of various living things corresponds to an evolutionary line-up. Simple plants, sea life, "great sea monsters", reptiles, mammals and man.
Wrong again; demonstrably wrong. Genesis has two separate creation stories that are in conflict about the order and neither is correct. Genesis 1:11-19 has vegetation before the Sun is created and is confused about when light begins, claiming in starts on the 1st day while the Sun isn't created until the 4th day.


Once again, I can only assume that you were brought up in a fundamentalist household and because you rightly disagreed with how a strict interpretation of the Bible can be seen to disagree with science, and as a result you rejected the whole thing rather than considering the concept that perhaps that method of interpretation was incorrect. The fact of Earth's development is that YES, at first there was total darkness as the sun's rays could not penetrate the thick clouds. Yes, continents developed slowly but started as a single mass. Yes, at some point they clouds were thin enough to allow the sun's light to be seen even though the sun itself could not be. YES as more dust settled at some point there may have been sufficient light to allow for living things to appear. And YES it was only later as much more dust settled that skies cleared and the sun itself was visible. This is what science tells us actually happened. And, as I pointed out, so does the Bible.


Genesis is a hopelessly confused, contradictory, and anti science myth.
How so is it hopelessly confused? Because you are confused? How so is it contradictory? Because Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 came from two completely different oral traditions and have different stories? My focus was just on Genesis 1. To bring up something else written somewhere else hinders having a logical discussion. And how so is it an anti-science myth? Myth it maybe, but it is an ancient myth that agrees with five different modern scientific concepts. How is that remotely possible?

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Re: Science AND Genesis

Post #73

Post by Diogenes »

DaveD49 wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:30 pm Why do so many atheists say that they do not accept the Bible but then insist that it can only be interpreted when read literally as a fundamentalist would?
You are assuming facts not in evidence while building a straw man. On this forum at least, non believers, including myself, regularly argue against interpreting the Bible literally, particularly the myths of Genesis. I have pointed out, dozens of times, that insisting on a literal interpretation makes the theists' task of persuasion extremely difficult if not impossible.

I do not know the world wide statistics, but in the United States a significant portion of so called "Christians" insist on taking the myths of Genesis literally. In fact most Americans, regardless of religious affiliation take these silly stores to be literal fact, while 90% of Evangelicals do. Your claim is simply factually incorrect.
Most Americans believe some of the best-known Bible stories are literally true....

Six in 10 in this ABC News PrimeTime poll say the Biblical accounts of Moses parting
the Red Sea, God creating the world in six days and Noah and the flood happened that
way, word for word. Evangelical Protestants are even more apt to hold this view; about
nine in 10 of them take these accounts literally.
https://abcnews.go.com/images/pdf/947a1 ... eBible.pdf

"Evangelicals now make up a clear majority (55%) of all U.S. Protestants." They constitute about 25% of all Christians.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/20 ... f-the-u-s/

Atheists reject a literal interpretation of the Genesis myths. THEY are the ones who insist the stories are allegorical only, along with (as you claimed) a significant portion of "Christians."
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Re: Science AND Genesis

Post #74

Post by DaveD49 »

AquinasForGod wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:41 pm [Replying to DaveD49 in post #1]

This kind of fundamentalism is bad for Christianity, so I am going to go through each one of these.
Wow. I wasn't expecting that from you even though I recognized that you were more conservative than I. I most certainly am not a fundamentalist. Please note that in all my comments about how it agrees with modern science I used the words "can be seen to agree" and NOT the words "does agree".
Slowly forming Earth
Now the earth was formless and void, there was darkness over the deep, and God's spirit hovered over the water. God said 'Let there be light', and their was light.
(Gen1:2-3)

Imagine for a minute that you were sitting on the planet at the time it was first developing from slowly settling dust, moisture and stone. You would be able to see nothing, because the dust and moisture in the sky would block out all to sun's rays. Over a loooong period of time eventually as more dust settled the light of the sun could be seen even though you still could not see the sun itself. I have read where scientists have said that during this period of time it rained for over 10,000 years. We are in what the Bible calls the first day. The sun and the moon do not become visible until the fourth day. (BTW the Hebrew word interpreted as "day" can also be interpreted as "age" or "eon". Look it up.)
First of all, it does not say on day 4 the sun and moon and stars became visible. It says on day 4 he PLACED the sun the moon and the stars in the firmament. The same firmament that birds fly in. BTW, people in Mesopotamia believed the whole universe was the shape of a snowglobe. The earth was the disk, and the heavens was the dome over it. Birds flew where stars are. This is why there are legends of some birds that could fly to the sun.

The person that wrote this verse would know that the absence of light is darkness, so if there was no light, since he believed God created light, then he would naturally describe the earth as being in a state of darkness. There is no reason to think he had modern-day understanding, which he clearly did not.
I am not saying that he had a modern-day understanding of science, and yes I am fully aware of the Babylonian view of the universe that was prevalent during the time (although you left out the concept of the "pillars of the earth" being attached to a slowly moving giant turtle). I am saying that even though he knew nothing of science, and even though the story survived hundreds of years of existing as oral tradition before it was finally written down, the fact is that it STILL can be seen to agree with modern science. Isn't that what "inspiration" is all about? The Bible is full of stories of things that the author of the time could not possibly know about, but in the future came true.
Super-Continents
God said, 'Let the waters under the heavens come together in a single mass and let dry land appear'. And so it was. God called the dry land 'earth' the the mass of waters 'seas'
(Gen1:9-10)

As more dust settled, dry land appeared starting in one place with one land mass.
Notice he thinks the dry land was made to appear after the waters came together. This is not how it happened scientifically. Also, this verse says nothing about continents. It says dry land as if there was just one of them. This would have been his view. They did not know there were other huge land masses, so they spoke of one land mass. Had he understood that Pangea broke apart into continents, he would have worded this differently. He makes no mention of one mass becoming many.
You are reading much more into what I said. The Bible states that the water was in one large pool, therefore it follows that the land also was one spot. That's it. Note that I said "like Pangea". I was not referring specifically to that supercontinent, but the 9 or 10 previous supercontinents that existed before it. They had broken apart and come back together a number of times before Pangea. The earliest manifestation was Vaalbaria (?) which was much, much smaller than Pangea. I am saying nothing about how land first appeared, most certainly not making a scientific claim. Most likely it happened as a result of volcanic activity along with the settling debris. Most likely this was after the rogue planet that smashed into Earth eventually producing our Moon.
Abiogenesis

This is a discredited scientific theory about the origins of life from the primordial goo, or "dirt", but it seems that the Bible agrees with it.
God said, 'Let the earth produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants, and fruit trees...
(Gen 1:11)
God said, Let the waters teem with living creatures, and let birds fly about the earth within the vault of heaven.
(Gen 1:20)
God said, Let the earth produce every kind of living creature: cattle, reptiles, and every kind of wild beast.
Gen 1:24

Note that in each case it does not say that God "zapped" them into being, but rather caused the EARTH or the WATERS to produce them. Note also the Bible also states
This was the view back then. They believed the earth produced plants. It was a simple observation. It rained, the sun beamed, then he earth produced plants. Why did it do that? God must have caused it. It doesn't say the waters produced fish, but let the water teem with living creatures. It doesn't say how the living creatures came to be but that they came to be in the water. People back then would have no clue how water creatures came to be, so if they believed in God, they would believe God caused them to be in the water.

Notice, that the creatures in the water began to exist in the water, which contradicts evolution.

He goes on to say the same with birds. They begin to exist in the sky. That is clearly not true. Also, I doubt he believed birds began to exist in the sky for they saw birds on the ground and in nests.

Where did land animals come from if water creatures began to exist in the water? They must have begun to exist on the earth.
Evolution

Note please that in general the order of appearance of various living things corresponds to an evolutionary line-up. Simple plants, sea life, "great sea monsters", reptiles, mammals and man.
Not really. Genesis says plants day 3 and water life day 5. This is incorrect. Plants originated in the water according to evolution theory.
Wow. You are treating my comments as a scientific discourse. Sorry but that is the furthest from the truth. I wasn't trying to do that! Why you you continually say "he believes" when you have never asked me to explain what I believe. Again, look at what I wrote.... I said "in general". I was not trying to show my beliefs on the matter nor was I trying to give a scientific explanation. I was talking about the general appearance of living things and how IN GENERAL it can be seen to agree with evolution.

I can only assume that you have Jesuit training. You get hung up on minor details but miss the actual point which was being made.

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Re: Science AND Genesis

Post #75

Post by DaveD49 »

AquinasForGod wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:11 pm [Replying to DaveD49 in post #1]

It looks foolish when Muslims try to claim scientific miracles in the Quran and it looks equally foolish when we try to do the same with the bible.

The bible is clearly written from the point of view of humans. Humans trying to understand the world and reconcile their divine revelations with how they understood the world at the time.


If there were a book from God, it would be so spectacular that every atheist would be amazed. In the very least, they would say it was from aliens. No such book exists.
Not what I was doing. Muslims claim that science confirms the Quran and thus it must be truth. And, yes I have read a number of their claims and they did seem foolish. I was saying that the modern scientific concepts "can be seen" in Genesis 1 even though it was written by people of the day with only the knowledge of the day.

There is a book from God and that is science itself. Science can only show us HOW God did what He did.

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Re: Science AND Genesis

Post #76

Post by TRANSPONDER »

DaveD49 wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 2:10 pm
AquinasForGod wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:11 pm [Replying to DaveD49 in post #1]

It looks foolish when Muslims try to claim scientific miracles in the Quran and it looks equally foolish when we try to do the same with the bible.

The bible is clearly written from the point of view of humans. Humans trying to understand the world and reconcile their divine revelations with how they understood the world at the time.


If there were a book from God, it would be so spectacular that every atheist would be amazed. In the very least, they would say it was from aliens. No such book exists.
Not what I was doing. Muslims claim that science confirms the Quran and thus it must be truth. And, yes I have read a number of their claims and they did seem foolish. I was saying that the modern scientific concepts "can be seen" in Genesis 1 even though it was written by people of the day with only the knowledge of the day.

There is a book from God and that is science itself. Science can only show us HOW God did what He did.
No, that won't do. Science refutes what Genesis says. Even if one denies the Babylonian snowdome - cosmos and "Interpreted" the Bible to "Really Mean" a round earth covered in cloud, and the dry land is supposed to mean the original super - continent; the errors in the order of creation ignored and the few right guesses counted as hits, '7 days' explained as 14+ billion years divided into 7 and the less said about morning and evening the better, you are still fiddling what the Bible says into what you would like it to mean (at least you don't just deny the science) and that only serves to excuse your faith. It does not provide evidence that Genesis is supported by science, it explains away the evidence that science doesn't support Genesis. Bottom line; it may suit you fine to wangle the Bible support your Faith but it is never an argument that will wash with atheists, and for good evidence - based reasons, not just because we're atheists.

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Re: Science AND Genesis

Post #77

Post by Diogenes »

DaveD49 wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 2:10 pm I was saying that the modern scientific concepts "can be seen" in Genesis 1 even though it was written by people of the day with only the knowledge of the day.

There is a book from God and that is science itself. Science can only show us HOW God did what He did.
You say this and you also say that Genesis should not be interpreted literally. So what DO you claim Genesis says that confirms science?
You write "I was saying that the modern scientific concepts "can be seen" in Genesis 1 even though it was written by people of the day with only the knowledge of the day." This statement suggests you have no principles of interpretation; that instead you will attempt to fashion whatever interpretation you need to reconcile Genesis with science.
In other words you simply reinterpret Genesis to fit whatever science discovers. Since you claim to reject a literal interpretation of Genesis, how do you interpret:
The world wide flood...
Noah and his Ark...
The Tower of Babel...
The two different and contradictory creation stories...
Joshua and the Sun standing still?

It appears that you simply look at what science says, then try to reinterpret scripture to fit.
or
you chose a literal interpretation, unless science shows that view is absurd.

Do you have any interpretation of scripture that you actually adhere to, regardless of what science discovers?
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Re: Science AND Genesis

Post #78

Post by AquinasForGod »

DaveD49 wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 2:10 pm
AquinasForGod wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:11 pm [Replying to DaveD49 in post #1]

It looks foolish when Muslims try to claim scientific miracles in the Quran and it looks equally foolish when we try to do the same with the bible.

The bible is clearly written from the point of view of humans. Humans trying to understand the world and reconcile their divine revelations with how they understood the world at the time.


If there were a book from God, it would be so spectacular that every atheist would be amazed. In the very least, they would say it was from aliens. No such book exists.
Not what I was doing. Muslims claim that science confirms the Quran and thus it must be truth. And, yes I have read a number of their claims and they did seem foolish. I was saying that the modern scientific concepts "can be seen" in Genesis 1 even though it was written by people of the day with only the knowledge of the day.

There is a book from God and that is science itself. Science can only show us HOW God did what He did.
I agree that scientists are merely trying to figure out how God does what God does in the world, but I don't think Genesis has science facts beyond its time.

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Re: Science AND Genesis

Post #79

Post by DaveD49 »

AquinasForGod wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 6:50 am
DaveD49 wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 2:10 pm
AquinasForGod wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:11 pm [Replying to DaveD49 in post #1]

It looks foolish when Muslims try to claim scientific miracles in the Quran and it looks equally foolish when we try to do the same with the bible.

The bible is clearly written from the point of view of humans. Humans trying to understand the world and reconcile their divine revelations with how they understood the world at the time.


If there were a book from God, it would be so spectacular that every atheist would be amazed. In the very least, they would say it was from aliens. No such book exists.
Not what I was doing. Muslims claim that science confirms the Quran and thus it must be truth. And, yes I have read a number of their claims and they did seem foolish. I was saying that the modern scientific concepts "can be seen" in Genesis 1 even though it was written by people of the day with only the knowledge of the day.

There is a book from God and that is science itself. Science can only show us HOW God did what He did.
I agree that scientists are merely trying to figure out how God does what God does in the world, but I don't think Genesis has science facts beyond its time.
Whether you think that Genesis has science facts beyond the author's time or not, I pointed out how five of them could be seen in the very first chapter. If you look at it closely you will see it for yourself. When you do see it then you may be willing to realize that your thinking needs adjustment. Even the very first Hebrew word of the Bible can be seen to contain a prediction (non-scientific) far beyond its time.

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Re: Science AND Genesis

Post #80

Post by AquinasForGod »

[Replying to DaveD49 in post #79]

Did you read my post where I show how each one is easily accountable for by knowledge at the time and what they most likely believed by the words? And how some of them are just wrong, such as plants being before water life. Evolution shows us that water life comes before land plants. In fact, water plants existed then later land plants.

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