Intelligent Design

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Intelligent Design

Post #1

Post by jtls1986 »

Is anyone familiar with this concept...I was introduced to this recently and I find it to be quite convincing...

Considering that Darwin himself stated that his theory of evolution would completely break down ***IF*** a biological entity was capable of developing complex systems without taking slow steps of slowly evolving similar structures that would eventually lead to the complex systems...

After observing a bacterium, and focusing on a single structure, the flagellum...scientists revealed a very complex biological machine....involving structures similar to a human machine that would run wheels or something like that... :roll:

Anyway, the scientists declared that such a complex system could not have been capable of evolving from organisms that originated from a "proto-earth", since the proteins and enzymes must connect in a particular fashion...and cannot connect differently...if the enzymes connect incorrectly....the enzymes will fall apart...and the protein itself would not have been produced...

These enzymes have thousands...if not billions of information that tell the enzyme to connect to a specific enzyme....and after connecting...the enzymes will roll up in a certain fashion to finally produce the protein..

How could primitive cells that originated from amino acids suddenly form such a complex chain of information that would form enzymes...and finally proteins that would together....form a complex bacterial flagellum?

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Post #9

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otseng wrote:"By irreducible complexity I mean a single system which is composed of several interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, and where the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning." Behe

So, an irreducible complex system has no known natural means for it to evolve. It would have had to evolve from nothing directly to its final form. And the only logical way it can come about is through purposeful design.
Applying flagella to this hypothesis is so absurd, I don't even know where to begin.

Firstly, there is nothing in the way we understand biology to preclude an entire system from being formed at once. William A. Dembski put it like this:
theres nothing in the throwing of Scrabble pieces that prevents them from spelling Hamlets soliloquy. This is not like releasing a massive object in a gravitational field which, in the absence of other forces, must move in a prescribed path. For the object to move in any other path would thus entail a counterfactual substitution and therefore a miracle. But with the Scrabble pieces there is no prescribed arrangement that they must assume. Nature allows them full freedom of arrangement. Yet its precisely that freedom that makes nature unable to account for specified outcomes of small probability. Nature, in this case, rather than being intent on doing only one thing, is open to doing any number of things.
Naturalism's Argument from Invincible Ignorance: A Response to Howard Van Till

That is to say, the one-celled organism is already sufficiently complex to be able to give rise to similarly complex superstructures within it such as the flagellum (or the nucleus) all at once.

Secondly, as for the flagella, there are structures within one-celled organisms that pre-figure flagella. They are called centrioles. Centrioles already exist within the cell as microtubules, which are what flagella are constructed with. It is not known for certain what the purpose of these structures are, as cells that have them removed are not ill-affected. But they are there, and they split during mitosis. Interestingly, plant cells do not contain centrioles, leading to speculation that they are directly involved in some kind of proto-locomotion in some way.

Thirdly, there is some weird behavior regarding these structures that you would not expect from a designed system.
Paramecium have parallel rows of cilia all aligned so that they will beat in the same direction. However, in the 1960's rows of cilia/basal bodies were grafted into Paramecium and they were able to show a change in direction of the beat. The cells passed on the change to future generations even though this was not a genetic alteration.
Cilia and Flagella

What might this imply? It is possible that cilia and flagella structures actually were independent organisms at one point in the evolution story, and were merged by accident somehow. They exchanged nuclear or some othe kind of chemical information that would make the parent cell absorb its structure in a kind of reverse-engineering information storage. Because independent flagella have not been found, it is possible that they died off without this adaptation at some point due to a natural selection event. Far fetched? Sure, but possible.

Here is another interesting discussion of this most odd experiment:
http://www.improb.com/airchives/paperai ... n-6-2.html

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Post #10

Post by otseng »

jwu wrote:There is one major problem with irreducible complexity. It works with distinctive parts of the organism, and doesn't take into account that at some point in the past e.g. two pieces of an organ might have been a single one, which, albeit less efficient, still kept the whole organ working.

Can you give an example of such a scenario?

The angle that Behe comes from in respect to irreducible complexity is analyzing the components of biological systems at its most basic level, at the molecular level. This is the lowest level that we can understand on how life works. But understanding how the molecules are put together to form various systems, then we can gain insight on how it can be put together.

So, the question is, at the molecular level, how can it be explained for the origin of these complex components? There are no viable answers apart from an intelligent design.

"In fact, none of the papers published in JME (Journal of Molecular Evolution) over the entire course of its life as a journal has ever proposed a detailed model by which a complex biochemical system might have been produced in a gradual, step-by-step Darwinian fashion." (pg 176)

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Post #11

Post by jwu »

I don't know much about molecular biology , so currently i am unable to provide such an example. However, concluding from the lack of such molecular biological examples in this thread that it is not possible to happen would be an argument from ignorance.

One example of several components of an organ being fused together to a single more simple (and less performant) one are eyes that use a small hole or slit instead of lens and iris, which do exist in nature (e.g. Nautilus). It can be considered to be a macro-life representation of the molecular biology that you pointed towards.

The eye of the nautilus is a more or less independent development, but it demonstrates nicely that it would be possible to substitute the complex lens system with something a lot simpler without the entire eye ceasing to function. It demonstrates that not the entire eye would have to appear out of nothing at once, but that a gradual development is possible.

http://www.maayan.uk.com/evoeyes2.html

Generally the "irreducible complexity" hypothesis depends on all the components of an organ being exactly as they are today.
As long as it can't completely eliminate the possibility that the current irreducibility is the result of a specialization of components in the past (which before that were able to substitute each other), no conclusions drawn from it can be considered to be proven.

It merely demonstrates that the direct way from nothing to an irreducibly complex system is very unlikely (albeit not impossible...we're talking about a posteriori odds here), but it doesn't say anything about indirect ways. These might be a lot more probable (and obviously are).

jwu
Last edited by jwu on Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post #12

Post by Lotan »

otseng wrote:
So, the question is, at the molecular level, how can it be explained for the origin of these complex components? There are no viable answers apart from an intelligent design.
The problem with this argument is that it is based on the assumption that some organs are 'irreducibly complex'. This is simply a variation on the creationist argument that 'if we can't explain it, it must be God'. In order to show that something is 'irreducibly complex' (ie impossible) one would have to prove a negative. Fortunately, the evolution of seemingly irreducibly complex structures like an eye or a flagellum, can be and has been explained, yet creationists refuse to accept explanations that don't include a designer.
Rather than repeating the question, why not take a look at the answers-
http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/ ... ticle.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe.html
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto His people. Exodus 32:14

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Post #13

Post by otseng »

Lotan wrote: The problem with this argument is that it is based on the assumption that some organs are 'irreducibly complex'.
Behe is not talking about "organs" but basic systems in which we can identify the molecular structure of it. When we get down to this level, then we cannot get at a more fundamental level of describing how something works. Then we can get a more objective analysis of its irreducible complexity.
Rather than repeating the question, why not take a look at the answers-
http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/ ... ticle.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe.html
What would help more in debates is if you can present in your own words what other websites say. Or at least provide quotes from them. I can also simply say, "Read Behe's book." But, that would be the lazy way out.

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Post #14

Post by Lotan »

otseng wrote:
So, the question is, at the molecular level, how can it be explained for the origin of these complex components? There are no viable answers apart from an intelligent design.
In response I must repeat that there are viable answers apart from intelligent design. The links are simply to demonstrate that these questions have been addressed. Perhaps your knowledge of molecular biology is sufficient to judge whether the answers provided are viable or not. My own understanding of the subject is insufficient. Since you are the one claiming that ID is the only possible answer the onus is on you to prove that statement. I'm claiming it is not.

Oh, and "organs", maybe "organelles" is more suitable. This is semantics.

This is semantics too-

otseng wrote:
Then we can get a more objective analysis of its irreducible complexity.
How can you be objective about an absolute?
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Post #15

Post by otseng »

Oh, and "organs", maybe "organelles" is more suitable. This is semantics.
It could be just semantics. But, the main point is that we have to get down to the molecular level to understand how something truly works. And at the molecular level, one then has to explain how did it come about.

Charles Darwin stated:
"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."

Modifications, at its most fundamental level, would have to be on the molecular level. So, evolution would have to explain how things evolved on the molecular level.
Lotan wrote:Since you are the one claiming that ID is the only possible answer the onus is on you to prove that statement.
Let's look at the cilium.

Image
Cilia are hairlike organelles on the surfaces of many animal and lower plant cells that serve to move fluid over the cell's surface or to "row" single cells through a fluid. In humans, for example, epithelial cells lining the respiratory tract each have about 200 cilia that beat in synchrony to sweep mucus towards the throat for elimination. A cilium consists of a membrane-coated bundle of fibers called an axoneme. An axoneme contains a ring of 9 double microtubules surrounding two central single microtubules. Each outer doublet consists of a ring of 13 filaments (subfiber A) fused to an assembly of 10 filaments (subfiber B). The filaments of the microtubules are composed of two proteins called alpha and beta tubulin. The 11 microtubules forming an axoneme are held together by three types of connectors: subfibers A are joined to the central microtubules by radial spokes; adjacent outer doublets are joined by linkers that consist of a highly elastic protein called nexin; and the central microtubules are joined by a connecting bridge. Finally, every subfiber A bears two arms, an inner arm and an outer arm, both containing the protein dynein.
Source: Molecular Machines: Experimental Support for the Design Inference

On the molecular level, how does a cilia work?
Experiments have indicated that ciliary motion results from the chemically-powered "walking" of the dynein arms on one microtubule up the neighboring subfiber B of a second microtubule so that the two microtubules slide past each other (Figure 2a and b). However, the protein cross-links between microtubules in an intact cilium prevent neighboring microtubules from sliding past each other by more than a short distance. These cross-links, therefore, convert the dynein-induced sliding motion to a bending motion of the entire axoneme.
This explanation is very high level. A more in-depth explanation is in Darwin's Black Box pages 59-69.

Probably 10 thousand articles have been published on the cilium in various professional journals including Science, Nature, Biochemistry, Journal of Molecular Biology, Journal of Biological Chemistry, and many others. No article gives an explanation of how the cilium arose from a molecular standpoint. And only 2 even try to give a model of how it did arise.

We see that the cilium is an example of a irreducible complex system.
Cilia are composed of at least a half dozen proteins: alpha-tubulin, beta-tubulin, dynein, nexin, spoke protein, and a central bridge protein. These combine to perform one task, ciliary motion, and all of these proteins must be present for the cilium to function. If the tubulins are absent, then there are no filaments to slide; if the dynein is missing, then the cilium remains rigid and motionless; if nexin or the other connecting proteins are missing, then the axoneme falls apart when the filaments slide.

What we see in the cilium, then, is not just profound complexity, but also irreducible complexity on the molecular scale. Recall that by "irreducible complexity" we mean an apparatus that requires several distinct components for the whole to work.
With such a lack of any viable molecular explanation for the origin of the cilium, it can be argued that it cannot have arisen from any naturalistic means. It must have been purposely designed.

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Post #16

Post by ST88 »

otseng wrote:
We see that the cilium is an example of a irreducible complex system.
Cilia are composed of at least a half dozen proteins: alpha-tubulin, beta-tubulin, dynein, nexin, spoke protein, and a central bridge protein. These combine to perform one task, ciliary motion, and all of these proteins must be present for the cilium to function. If the tubulins are absent, then there are no filaments to slide; if the dynein is missing, then the cilium remains rigid and motionless; if nexin or the other connecting proteins are missing, then the axoneme falls apart when the filaments slide.

What we see in the cilium, then, is not just profound complexity, but also irreducible complexity on the molecular scale. Recall that by "irreducible complexity" we mean an apparatus that requires several distinct components for the whole to work.
With such a lack of any viable molecular explanation for the origin of the cilium, it can be argued that it cannot have arisen from any naturalistic means. It must have been purposely designed.
This assumes that in order for a eukaryotic cell, any single-celled eukaryotic organism to survive at all, cilia is necessary. That is, there is no possibility that intermediate steps would be viable -- not even that there would be a natural-selection advantage that the lack of cilia provides, but that life would be viable at all.

This also assumes that these proteins could not operate as anything else inside cells, or even exist at all except as they exist in the axoneme. I reason this way because evolution is all about developmental mistakes that benefit organisms. It should be clear that when existing components are organized in different ways, different structures can be created. The irreducible complexity argument would therefore fall apart if we were to find these components operating in different ways inside a cell.

1) My previous example of the centriole, which contains much of the building blocks & part of the structure of cilia inside the cell.

2) To say that "removing" one of the components listed above would lead to a useless appendage is terribly misleading, because it implies that these components all came together at the same time to create the structure. For example, dyneins appear elsewhere in cells. During mitosis, dyneins and kinesins, as microtubule motors, assist with cetrosomal movement towards the poles of the splitting cell, which has nothing to do with flagella. Since they are present in other structures in the cell, this tends to support the hypothesis that cilia and flagella arose from non-motile cells.

3) Not every single organism has the same structure of cilia & flagella:
Although the 9 + 2 pattern is the fundamental pattern of virtually all cilia and flagella, the axonemes of certain protozoans and some insect sperm show some interesting variations. The simplest such axoneme, containing three doublet microtubules and no central singlets (3 + 0) is found in Daplius, a parasitic protozoan. Its flagellum beats slowly (1.5 beats/s) in a helical pattern. Other axonemes consist of 6 + 0 or 9 + 0 arrangements of microtubules. These atypical cilia and flagella, which are all motile, show that the central pair of singlet microtubules is not necessary for axonemal beating and that fewer than nine outer doublets can sustain motility, but at a lower frequency.
Cilia and Flagella: Structure and Movement
This would tend to suggest that these structures did not necessarily arise spontaneously intact in the historical account, but that there may have been intermediate forms that provided "lower" levels of function. That they are different and viable suggests this.

4) The tubulins, the components of the microtubules that slide against each other to provide movements, are present in the microtubules inside the cell in the centromeres as well as those inside cilia (axonemes). Because both plant and animal cells have microtubules, but only animal cells have centromeres, we can infer that microtubules are not exclusively formed for cilia & flagella.

5) Here is a cross section of a cilia:
Image
The nexin bridge ("interdoublet nexin connection") is (theorized to be) the connection between microtubule doublets, acting like bungee cords so they don't slide past each other too much.

The microtubules in each doublet are not the same, they are distinguished as "A" and "B" tubules, as your quote points out. But there are also single and triplet microtubule structures that include "C" tubules, essentially the same as B's. Inside centrioles there are still other types: D, E, Z & H.
(http://www.rpi.edu/dept/bcbp/molbiochem ... crotub.htm)
This suggests that the structure of the cilia was not, in fact, created out of thin air, but was already a potential possibility in prokaryotic cells.

6) Prokaryotes, in evolutionary terms older than eukaryotes, possess similar proteins, FtsZ, to those that make up tubules in eukaryotes:
A relatively new and interesting finding is that FtsZ and tubulin appear to be homologues.... it was also found that [Ftsz] could assemble into protofilaments, two-dimensional sheets, and protofilament rings in in vitrostudies, which was consistent with FtsZ having a cytoskeletal-like function.
Exploring structure and function of FtsZ, a prokaryotic cell division protein and tubulin-homologue
In short, these two proteins do the same things in different classes of cells. This article goes on to say, in technical detail, that these two proteins share sequences in important structures, such as what are called the "N-terminal" and the "C-terminal", both of which have to do with ATP-like protein binding and destruction. The article also goes on to say that these similarities could possibly be formed independently -- and they do not share all traits -- but it is more likely that they are related because of the core similarities they share. And, further, FtsZ is a strong candidate for an early evolutionary version of tubulins.

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Post #17

Post by Lotan »

How to Write a Pseudoscience Bestseller

1. Create a mystery where none existed before, preferably one that cannot be easily easily proven or disproven. (eg. Atlantis, Bermuda Triangle, Irreducible Complexity)

2. Provide a startling solution to the 'mystery' based on the selective use of evidence. (eg. Lost Civilizations, UFOs, Intelligent Design)

3. Publish, and laugh all the way to the bank.

This pattern has been repeated countless times by the likes of Erich von Daniken, Graham Hancock, Charles Berlitz, et al precisely because it works. Readers feel that they are privy to a new breakthrough in science are usually don't have the time or inclination to research the authour's claims. Like this one:
Now, are any biochemical systems irreducibly complex? Yes, it turns out that many are.
from here.

Michael Behe would do well to read the next paragraph from Origin of Species (after "If it could be demonstrated..."):
We should be extremely cautious in concluding that an organ could not have been formed by transitional gradations of some kind.
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto His people. Exodus 32:14

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Post #18

Post by otseng »

It should be clear that when existing components are organized in different ways, different structures can be created.
Yes, life is made of basic components (monomers) and when organized in different ways they create different structures. But, because the same components are used in different structures, it does not show that that are not irreducibly complex. Take for instance a nail. It can be used to secure shingles on a roof. Or it can be used to put together a treehouse. Or it can be used to hang a picture on a wall. Take the nail away from any of the structures (roof, treehouse, picture) and the structures will not be able to fulfill its function.
This would tend to suggest that these structures did not necessarily arise spontaneously intact in the historical account, but that there may have been intermediate forms that provided "lower" levels of function. That they are different and viable suggests this.
There are some questions that arise out of this. How did the "lower" forms of cilia form? How did "lower" forms of cilia evolve into "higher" forms of cilia?

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