Illegal Immigration

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Funny. It appears as if the unregulated free market embraced by today's religious right DOES have it's limitations.

When a greedy CEO decides to cut health care benefits for minimum wage workers in order to further engorge his profits, that's perfectly legit. But when a foreign laborer willing to work twice as hard for half the pay gets hired over you, THEN WE HAVE AN OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE!

I'm tired of all the capitalist pigs complaining about losing jobs to Hispanics. This is the form of society you have embraced. Now you get to deal with the competition it entails.




Here's an idea: force companies to pay all workers the same wages, and there is no incentive to hire the immigrant over your average blue collar worker. Problem solved.

Is it really this simple, or am I just missing something?

What is the purpose of the complex naturalization process? I always thought America was the land of opportunity. Suddenly it has become an exclusive membership club. We assert the joys of a free market all over the world, but wish to deny certain groups of people these same rights on the home front.

Another idea. Enter the borders- BAM, your a citizen. Screw the little aptitude tests.

Would this cause any signifigant economic backlashes? The workforce would be no more saturated than it all ready is, right? I'm asking you guys... I'm no economist.



Please share your ideas and solutions.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Hey, you're the one who is saying we should just open the borders and let anyone in who wants to. Mexico would love it if we would, that's what they fight for on a daily basis. Of course, Mexico also deports approximately 500 Guatamalans per day by bus across their southern border, plus illegals of other nationalities out of Mexico City by plane and boat.

Sorry, but I am not seeing the relevance of this argument.

What Mexico decides to do with its immigrants is an entirely seperate issue, and certainly not one which we have immediate control over.

If you want companies to move to Mexico, you're nuts. The only reason US companies move off shore is so they don't have to follow US laws. They're never going to go anywhere if they're going to be held to the same rules and regulations they are here.

Who said anything about them voluntarily going?

Any profit they lose can be reimbursed by the government. This would be no more expensive than any of the other rediculous reform notions, and we could satisfy the needs of both impoverished Mexican familys and the American racists demanding that we rid the land of all wetbacks.

Realistically, the companies do not even have to give wages in compliance with the American Fair Labor Act. They can pay what US landscaping contractors or Wal-Mart are currently paying, and still accomplish the same goal.

And you want to know who pays for most of it? THE UNITED STATES! It's cheaper than waiting until they get here.

How? Are they sending their aliens here?

Let them come.

If you weren't paying taxes, were using valuable taxpayer resources and were sending the money you made outside the country, then yes, you would be a drain on the economy

More like a drain on the government's tax revenue. Good, less money for them to spend on nukes.

Obviously though, I have not made this quite clear enough. I don't particularly care if the immigrants are benefiting the economy or not. As long as it is not sending us into mass recession, I see no reason not to accompany those who are merely seeking greater opportunities unavailable in their home lands. When I was but a young gullible lad, I had fallen under the impression that this is what America is- the land of opportunity. It's time to bring back that title and live by it.

Oh, I'm sure the terrorist groups will love that, just like they love our open southern border.

When was the last major terrorist attack on US soil? September 11, 2001.

In the last five years, how many Americans have died from foreign terrorist attacks, even considering the condition of our porous borders? ZERO.


Now the flip side...


In the last five years, how many starving Latino's could have benefitted from access to US resources? Millions.

How many all ready HAVE benefitted from our resources? 12 million (by most estimates).


The .0000000000000000000000000000001% of the American population personally effected by terrorism can secure their own borders. As for people who actually give a crap about the world, there are more important issues to tend to.

[1John2_26]

In the last five years, how many starving Latino's could have benefitted from access to US resources? Millions.

How many all ready HAVE benefitted from our resources? 12 million (by most estimates).

Why would we even want people from bankrupt civilizations to gain in numbers in a country that is not a latin country and obviously is not starving "its" people?

12-million is a staggering amount of people to have to pay for. Why can't these proud latinos that fly the flags from their countries starving their people just go back and work to make THOSE countries a better place? Do we not hear incessantly that these are just people that want to work?

Let them work for their own latino countries where spanish is spoken as the "official language?"

Why ruin America? Why cause "it" to become a country that cannot take care of its people? it is because of foreigners - that is what these "illegal" aliens are - that our hospitals are in crisis over.

As has been proven, Mexico deports "its illegal immigrants" and demands that an honest soveriegn nation take its over-population?

That is not hypocrisy, it is an invasion in reality.

If Mexico expels its illegal aliens then they should have no problem with America doing the same.

[Cephus]

What Mexico decides to do with its immigrants is an entirely seperate issue, and certainly not one which we have immediate control over.

It points out that Mexico is extremely hypocritical. They expect us to take care of their dregs, yet they utterly refuse to do so for those that see Mexico as the land of opportunity. Vincente Fox screams about how horrible it is that the US is considering making illegal aliens into felons, yet turns around and does the exact same thing with Guatamalans.

And this is the regime you support.

Who said anything about them voluntarily going?

And this coming from Mr. Free Market, huh? Sure, we're going to hold guns to the heads of corporations and force them to move to Mexico?

How? Are they sending their aliens here?

No, they're returning them to their country of origin, as they should do. As we should do too.

More like a drain on the government's tax revenue. Good, less money for them to spend on nukes.

And food for the poor and roads and infrastructure. If you want to pay for the illegals, why don't you start by offering your entire paycheck. Of yeah, because you want OTHER people to pay for it. Gotcha.

[palmera]

Considering the fact that America, from it's very inception, has been a country of immigrants, it would seem that we should be more understanding of the plight of others. It strikes me as odd how we sell America to the world as the land of the free where one can go from "rags to riches" yet we seem to be actually doing the opposite.

I was at a rally last night with latinos from across tennessee, gathered in Nashville. They gathered to make a stand against the powerful white majority in this country that, amidst a troubled country, in troubled times, cowers and points a condemning finger at those with the least power.

Certainly there are numbers to trot out to condemn illegal aliens, there are "principles" which one can lean on- but what we're really talking about here is using fellow human beings as scapegoats for the larger problems of a nation. This has been done time and time again historically- nation in trouble, those in power can't deal with it, blame the little guy, kill him, get him out.

12-million is a staggering amount of people to have to pay for. Why can't these proud latinos that fly the flags from their countries starving their people just go back and work to make THOSE countries a better place? Do we not hear incessantly that these are just people that want to work?

It's a little more complicated than you seem to realize. In order to affect change on such a scale it takes solidarity between those in power and those marginalized who bear the burden of a crumbling economy and infrastructure. That's something which takes time, or a radical shift in the dominant paradigm of the nations elite. For that shift to occur, it takes the influence of other nations or, a revolution by the people.

Why ruin America? Why cause "it" to become a country that cannot take care of its people? it is because of foreigners - that is what these "illegal" aliens are - that our hospitals are in crisis over.

If America is ruined, it won't be because of immigrants- stop making them scapegoats for larger issues. It's not "because of foreigners" that our hospitals are in crisis. It's got more to do with the lack of doctors without enough incentives to work in a world where people sue to make a quick buck.

[Cephus]

Considering the fact that America, from it's very inception, has been a country of immigrants, it would seem that we should be more understanding of the plight of others. It strikes me as odd how we sell America to the world as the land of the free where one can go from "rags to riches" yet we seem to be actually doing the opposite.

The point is that the immigrants that make up America are *LEGAL*! They came here, not only in accordance with the law, but to make a life for themselves *IN AMERICA*. What's happening right now is we're being inundated with people who flagrantly violate the law, and have no interest whatsoever in being Americans. They use our system, give nothing back, and have nothing but disdain for the nation that they are milking. That's what pisses people off and what's so patently dishonest about the whole "we're all immigrants" nonsense. We may have been immigrants, now we're Americans.

I was at a rally last night with latinos from across tennessee, gathered in Nashville. They gathered to make a stand against the powerful white majority in this country that, amidst a troubled country, in troubled times, cowers and points a condemning finger at those with the least power.

No, they're playing the race card where it has absolutely no place, but what can you expect? They have no legitimate argument, they can't say they have a right to be here, they can't say they have a claim to US money or infrastructure, so they have to pretend it's all about race.

Guess what, it wouldn't matter if it was white Canadians coming across the border, it would still be wrong and they'd still deserve to get booted back to their home country.

If America is ruined, it won't be because of immigrants- stop making them scapegoats for larger issues. It's not "because of foreigners" that our hospitals are in crisis. It's got more to do with the lack of doctors without enough incentives to work in a world where people sue to make a quick buck.

What, you think that doctors are a public resource who don't deserve to be compensated for their time? As it stands now, doctors and hospitals are going out of business because they have no choice but to treat people for free just because they walk in the door.

It's really amazing to see the socialists come out of the woodwork.

[palmera]

What's happening right now is we're being inundated with people who flagrantly violate the law, and have no interest whatsoever in being Americans. They use our system, give nothing back, and have nothing but disdain for the nation that they are milking. That's what pisses people off and what's so patently dishonest about the whole "we're all immigrants" nonsense. We may have been immigrants, now we're Americans.

I didn't know there was free money to be had in America. Sign me up! In reality immigrants, illegal and legal do give something back to America- much needed labor which most Americans won't do. The agricultural industry, for example, relies heavy on the cheap labor provided by illegal immigrants.

Of course they use the system to their benefit! Who doesn't? It's amazing what people will do to protect and nurture their families- the sheer audacity of performing jobs here in America for far less than Americans will is insane right?

No, they're playing the race card where it has absolutely no place, but what can you expect? They have no legitimate argument, they can't say they have a right to be here, they can't say they have a claim to US money or infrastructure, so they have to pretend it's all about race

The use of the race card is a red herring. They are rallying with American citizens to protest their marginalization. They do deserve to be paid for the work they do- also, how do you know they don't want to be U.S. citizens? Do you speak for all of them?

Further, our immigration laws infringe on the rights of employers to choose who works for them- which could be to the detriment of their business. Americans don't have the "right" to jobs over "foreigners" just because Americans are born here. That's totally against the values of our economic system and a disgrace to reason. Why punish those who come here, often risking death, for the express purpose of working???? Their presence gives back to America- they aren't the ones taking all the welfare money- rather, it's American's who are too good to do certain jobs. I'm not arguing that illegal immigrants should be made legal, or allowed to stay here without paying taxes. What I'm arguing is that it's ridiculous to criminalize and marginalize a huge source of labor for American business- it hurts us in the long run.

What, you think that doctors are a public resource who don't deserve to be compensated for their time? As it stands now, doctors and hospitals are going out of business because they have no choice but to treat people for free just because they walk in the door.

I'm not sure if you read what I wrote correctly. I said that one of the major reasons that our hospitals are in "crisis" is because doctors aren't compensated enough. As for treating people for free as the main problem- where's the evidence for this argument?

It's really amazing to see the socialists come out of the woodwork.

You need to check your definition of socialist. You've completely misused it here.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

12-million is a staggering amount of people to have to pay for.

Why ruin America? Why cause "it" to become a country that cannot take care of its people? it is because of foreigners - that is what these "illegal" aliens are - that our hospitals are in crisis over.

Luke 3:11
The man with two tunics should share with him who has none, and the one who has food should do the same

Rom 12:13
Share what you have with those who are in need. Be hospitable.

Heb 13:16
Don't forget to do good things for others and to share what you have with them. These are the kinds of sacrifices that please God.



Until you have come to understand the meaning of these verses, I request that you never preach "Biblical accuracy" to me again.

The United States has enough resources to distribute to the worlds 6.5 billion people 10 times over. The amount of money it takes to sustain 12 million immigrants is pocket change by our federal budget's terms.

The only real burden illegal aliens present is placed upon those proud Americans who cannot stand to see a group of people who do not feel inclined to worship the stars and stripes and fully assimilate to every aspect of our arrogant culture.

It points out that Mexico is extremely hypocritical. They expect us to take care of their dregs, yet they utterly refuse to do so for those that see Mexico as the land of opportunity. Vincente Fox screams about how horrible it is that the US is considering making illegal aliens into felons, yet turns around and does the exact same thing with Guatamalans.

And this is the regime you support.

No, apparently you are still a bit confused as to who I support.

Whatever the Mexican government says and does is irrelevant to me.

I support the rights and opportunites of the Mexican citizens. Vincente Fox can go to hell.

The Chinese government is corrupt and oppressive. Does that mean we should stop outsourcing jobs there that provide locals with greater opportunities?

Mexico does not seem too concerned about it's citizens, much less it's immigrants. Time for America to step up to the cause.

Who said anything about them voluntarily going?

And this coming from Mr. Free Market, huh?

"Mr. Free Market"?

You must have me confused with someone else. I am a socialist.

Sure, we're going to hold guns to the heads of corporations and force them to move to Mexico?

If the government opts to reimburse any lost profits, we won't need to hold guns to their heads.

Most companies are no longer sending jobs to Mexico due to the lower wage costs in places like India. Let's say they can afford to pay Indian workers $2 an hour, as opposed to $3 an hour in Mexico. If the government offered to pay certain companies that extra dollar if they were to move some of their plants to Mexico, there would no longer be a pay disparity between Mexican and Indian wages, eliminating the company's incentive to move to India in the first place.

Any Mexican who gets that $3 job has no reason to sneak into America.

More jobs= less illegal immigrants= less whiny conservatives.

That's the theory, anyway.



Either we help the workers here, or we help them in Mexico. I will consider no other alternatives.

More like a drain on the government's tax revenue. Good, less money for them to spend on nukes.

And food for the poor and roads and infrastructure.

The US government devotes money to the citizens and infastructure?

When did they start doing this?

If you want to pay for the illegals, why don't you start by offering your entire paycheck. Of yeah, because you want OTHER people to pay for it. Gotcha.

Yes, the Department of Defense. That is, assuming that opening the borders will actually cost us any money.

Although, if needed, I wouldn't mind devoting some of my tax money to the cause.

It's really amazing to see the socialists come out of the woodwork.

Tell me about it. Where's McCarthy when you need him?

[Cephus]

I didn't know there was free money to be had in America. Sign me up! In reality immigrants, illegal and legal do give something back to America- much needed labor which most Americans won't do. The agricultural industry, for example, relies heavy on the cheap labor provided by illegal immigrants.

Which is complete bull. Americans will do the labor, just not at the minimum-wage-violating prices that illegals are doing it for. There's a reason we have a minimum wage, you know. The reason these industries can get away with paying people so little is that they are ultimately being subsidized by the taxpayers. We are paying higher taxes so that the agriculture industry can save money on labor. Sure, sign me up for that.

Of course they use the system to their benefit! Who doesn't? It's amazing what people will do to protect and nurture their families- the sheer audacity of performing jobs here in America for far less than Americans will is insane right?

You can just get slaves who will do it for free, why not do that? Don't pay them anything, then expect the taxpayers to pay for their upkeep. Why not, it's best for business, isn't that what you're advocating?

The use of the race card is a red herring. They are rallying with American citizens to protest their marginalization. They do deserve to be paid for the work they do- also, how do you know they don't want to be U.S. citizens? Do you speak for all of them?

There is no marginalization, these people are CRIMINALS! They are breaking the law! There are no two ways about it. Why are people so blind to that simple fact?

Further, our immigration laws infringe on the rights of employers to choose who works for them- which could be to the detriment of their business.

Yup, just like the Civil War infringed on the rights of employers to choose who gets chained to the wall. We are a nation of laws, get used to it.

I'm not sure if you read what I wrote correctly. I said that one of the major reasons that our hospitals are in "crisis" is because doctors aren't compensated enough. As for treating people for free as the main problem- where's the evidence for this argument?

They're not compensated at all when it comes to illegal aliens. They are required by law to treat them for free, even if they walk in 6 days a week. They can't refuse any treatment of any kind or they face lawsuits by illegal-immigrant-rights groups. The evidence that this is a problem are all the hospitals that are going bankrupt because they can't afford to render free treatment and get nothing in return!

The Cochise County, Arizona Health Department spends as much as 30 percent of its annual $9 million budget on illegal aliens. The Copper Queen Hospital in Bisbee, Arizona, has spent $200,000 in uncompensated services out of a net operating budget of $300,000. The University Medical Center in Tucson may lose as much as $10 million and the Good Samaritan Regional Medical Center, also in Tucson, has lost $1 million in the first quarter of fiscal 2002.

"The General Accounting Office traveled to southern Arizona to study the impact of illegal immigrants on Arizona and other border state hospitals. In 2002, three hospitals located in Cochise County funded more than $1 million in uncompensated health care costs... The Florida Hospital Association surveyed 28 hospitals and found that health care for illegal aliens totaled at least $40 million in 2002."

http://www.theamericanresistance.com/is ... _care.html[/url]

[palmera]

There's a reason we have a minimum wage, you know.

True. Did you know that most economists were against setting a minimum wage law to begin with? The market, if left alone, would take care of itself. The power of setting wages should only lie in the hands of the consumers, not the government's. Also, you should do some research on the agriculture industry's need of immigrants, documented and not. don't be so naive to think that booting out the immigrants will solve the problem.

The reason these industries can get away with paying people so little is that they are ultimately being subsidized by the taxpayers.

Yes, the agindustryy is subsidized, but that's not the sole or ultimate reason they can pay so little- it's actually because people are willing to work for so little. You know, indirectly, the cost of ag products goes downbecausee of cheap labor. Immigrants, legal and non give back more than you think. Not to mention, it's just plain ridiculous for a nation founded on capitalist ideals to deny anyone the opportunity to seek work, and obtain it by their own initiative and ability, regardless of where they are born.

You can just get slaves who will do it for free, why not do that? Don't pay them anything, then expect the taxpayers to pay for their upkeep. Why not, it's best for business, isn't that what you're advocating?

What are you talking about??? How could you possibly draw this conclusion from what I've said?

There is no marginalization, these people are CRIMINALS! They are breaking the law! There are no two ways about it. Why are people so blind to that simple fact?

Don't be so naive. No marginalization??? You know, at one point not to long ago it was against the law for a black person to use white bathrooms too. But hey, they were CRIMINALS! They were breaking the law- no two ways about it right?

Yup, just like the Civil War infringed on the rights of employers to choose who gets chained to the wall. We are a nation of laws, get used to it.

I just don't even know what to say. Being a nation of laws doesn't mean that we are a just nation. Calling for a free market doesn't mean calling for slavery. No employer has the right to enslave another human being- your response here again has no bearing on what I've said.

They're not compensated at all when it comes to illegal aliens. They are required by law to treat them for free, even if they walk in 6 days a week. They can't refuse any treatment of any kind or they face lawsuits by illegal-immigrant-rights groups. The evidence that this is a problem are all the hospitals that are going bankrupt because they can't afford to render free treatment and get nothing in return!

The Cochise County, Arizona Health Department spends as much as 30 percent of its annual $9 million budget on illegal aliens. The Copper Queen Hospital in Bisbee, Arizona, has spent $200,000 in uncompensated services out of a net operating budget of $300,000. The University Medical Center in Tucson may lose as much as $10 million and the Good Samaritan Regional Medical Center, also in Tucson, has lost $1 million in the first quarter of fiscal 2002.

"The General Accounting Office traveled to southern Arizona to study the impact of illegal immigrants on Arizona and other border state hospitals. In 2002, three hospitals located in Cochise County funded more than $1 million in uncompensated health care costs... The Florida Hospital Association surveyed 28 hospitals and found that health care for illegal aliens totaled at least $40 million in 2002."

Are the border area hospitals representative of the nations hospitals??? Our national healthcare issues are far ranging and not rooted in troubles with poor undocumented workers.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Recently I read a story depicting an illegal immigrant who was making $360 a week in the US, as opposed to $80 back in Mexico (well below the poverty line).

To think that there is actually a debate surrounding this issue. A sad testament to the supposedly "superior" ethics of the average American citizen.

From what I have seen, the main issue seems to revolve around "preserving the unique American culture".

A clever way to re-word racism.