Proof of the Christian God

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RonE
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Proof of the Christian God

Post #1

Post by RonE »

In a current topic there was the following post:
Kenisaw wrote:
theStudent wrote: Merely saying something is true does not make it true….
We as humans like to have proof.
Gullible people accept things, because it suits them…
And yet theists continue to claim that a creator being exists and that it made everything, despite repeatedly failing to provide any evidence to substantiate the claim....
I’ve seen other posts in the past on this site where theist claim to have scientific evidence of God. I never seen this actually done, usually their evidence is never presented, if something is presented it is invariably misquoted, or doesn’t say what the presenter claims it does.
So, to help us not be “gullible people�. This topic will be dedicated to theists to provide that which has been claimed but never provided, to my knowledge, real scientific evidence of the Christian god.
First, some definitions and parameters for debate:
1. Scientific evidence is evidence which serves to either support, or counter, a scientific theory or hypothesis. Such evidence is expected to be empirical evidence and interpreted in accordance with scientific methods. Standards for scientific evidence vary according to the field of inquiry, but the strength of scientific evidence is generally based on the results of statistical analysis and the strength of scientific controls applied. Wikipedia
2. The scientific hypothesis you will be trying to support with your evidence goes like this: “there is a god as defined in the Christian bible who is omnificent, omnipotent, omniscient, etc. and creator of the universe�.
3. This is not a debate about evolution, disproving evolution is not a proof that your god exists. Nor is it about attempting to debunk other scientific hypothesis or theories, unless doing so is direct proof that your god exists, disproving the theory of gravity is not evidence of your god.
4. Please follow the forum rules. “the Bible or other religious writings are not to be considered evidence for scientific claims.�

The rules for this debate are simple:
1) present your scientific evidence of your god
2) see #1

If you don’t have the evidence, please don’t waste everyone’s time.
If you don't like the OP create one for your own topic.
*"On the other hand, we have people who are believers who are so completely sold on the literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible that they are rejecting very compelling scientific data about the age of the earth and the relatedness of living beings." Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D.
*The Atheist has the comfort of no fears for an afterlife and lacks any compulsion to blow himself up.
* Science flies to you the moon.... religion flies you into buildings.
* Faith isn’t a virtue; it is the glorification of voluntary ignorance.

JLB32168

Re: Proof of the Christian God

Post #8

Post by JLB32168 »

RonE wrote: Good, by the way you might see if there is something you can do to backup your claims that your god exists in the supernatural world, some evidence that such a thing exists for your god to exist in. Get it? Extraordinary claims require... ah you know the rest.
Supernatural claims cannot be verified by natural methods. If they could then they wouldn’t be called “supernatural.�

I can’t prove God exists. Is the fact that you don’t have proof; therefore, you don’t believe He does exist, supposed to be of some import to me?

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JoeyKnothead
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Post #9

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 7:
JLB32168 wrote: Supernatural claims cannot be verified by natural methods. If they could then they wouldn’t be called “supernatural.�
I submit they can't be verified by any means.
JLB32168 wrote: I can’t prove God exists.
I've yet to find anyone that could.
JLB32168 wrote: Is the fact that you don’t have proof; therefore, you don’t believe He does exist, supposed to be of some import to me?
I propose that if it weren't important to you, you wouldn't have posted twice now in this thread.

Don't it beat all, the Christian finds it so important to tell us all about their favored god, they just don't find it important to show they speak truth.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Post #10

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 2:

Paraphrasing to eliminate reference to any individual...
Neatras wrote: It's no good, Ron. [Some theists are] the kind of person for whom the scientific process is nothing more than a scapegoat for him to parade his anti-intellectual egotistical grandstanding about how deluded we all are for believing in evolution.
We shouldn't be too shocked when the promoters of a book so full of violence and vitriol for others set to violencin' and vitriolin'. They know no better, poor things.
Neatras wrote: [They make] the sweeping claims that literally all evidence in the entire universe is automatically evidence for Creationism, and will resort to the same arguments from complexity and incredulity to try and pass off any criticism. It's a sick game he's playing, and one that has expertly slipped under the radar of the forum's rules under the guise of friendly debate. In reality, he uses it as his own personal hammer to smack down all evidence to the contrary by asserting that it isn't even evidence at all, because it doesn't explain some arbitrary point that wasn't even related to the discussion.
That ain't no hammer, it's a rubber mallet, incapable of driving nails in the coffin of science.
Neatras wrote: This is what I expect to see, and what I anticipate will follow from this OP's premise. It's hopeless.
I predict you've effectively headed off such arguments. And, I find it fun just watchin' 'em flail about, nothing hopeless in that :wave:
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Re: Proof of the Christian God

Post #11

Post by Zzyzx »

.
JLB32168 wrote: I can’t prove God exists. Is the fact that you don’t have proof; therefore, you don’t believe He does exist, supposed to be of some import to me?
It IS important in honorable, reasoned debate to avoid making claims that cannot be shown to be true and accurate.

Joey says it well
.
Non-Theist

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

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Re: Proof of the Christian God

Post #12

Post by RonE »

[Replying to post 7 by JLB32168]
JLB32168 wrote:
RonE wrote: Good, by the way you might see if there is something you can do to backup your claims that your god exists in the supernatural world, some evidence that such a thing exists for your god to exist in. Get it? Extraordinary claims require... ah you know the rest.
Supernatural claims cannot be verified by natural methods. If they could then they wouldn’t be called “supernatural.�

I can’t prove God exists. Is the fact that you don’t have proof; therefore, you don’t believe He does exist, supposed to be of some import to me?
Well I'd hope that it would be, you are placing your 'faith' and possibly a good bit of your time, effort, and treasure into something for which you have no evidence. IMHO it is a double whammy, no proof of your claimed deity and no proof of anything supernatural.

Do you believe in ghosts? How about vampires? Or zombies? All supernatural entities. I think this is a slippery slope, since there is no evidence of any of these, or your god, if you believe in one you must believe in all.
*"On the other hand, we have people who are believers who are so completely sold on the literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible that they are rejecting very compelling scientific data about the age of the earth and the relatedness of living beings." Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D.
*The Atheist has the comfort of no fears for an afterlife and lacks any compulsion to blow himself up.
* Science flies to you the moon.... religion flies you into buildings.
* Faith isn’t a virtue; it is the glorification of voluntary ignorance.

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Re: Proof of the Christian God

Post #13

Post by logical thinking »

JLB32168 wrote:
RonE wrote: Good, by the way you might see if there is something you can do to backup your claims that your god exists in the supernatural world, some evidence that such a thing exists for your god to exist in. Get it? Extraordinary claims require... ah you know the rest.
Supernatural claims cannot be verified by natural methods. If they could then they wouldn’t be called “supernatural.�
So, if supernatural claims cannot be verified by natural methods, how do you verify them?

And if you can't verify them, how can you distinguish them from other unverified claims that you don't believe in, like for example the claim that the Archangel Gabriel talked to Mohammed and told him specifically that Jesus is NOT the Son of God?
I can’t prove God exists. Is the fact that you don’t have proof; therefore, you don’t believe He does exist, supposed to be of some import to me?
Yes

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Re: Proof of the Christian God

Post #14

Post by RonE »

[Replying to post 12 by logical thinking]
logical thinking wrote:
JLB32168 wrote:
RonE wrote: Good, by the way you might see if there is something you can do to backup your claims that your god exists in the supernatural world, some evidence that such a thing exists for your god to exist in. Get it? Extraordinary claims require... ah you know the rest.
Supernatural claims cannot be verified by natural methods. If they could then they wouldn’t be called “supernatural.�
So, if supernatural claims cannot be verified by natural methods, how do you verify them?

And if you can't verify them, how can you distinguish them from other unverified claims that you don't believe in, like for example the claim that the Archangel Gabriel talked to Mohammed and told him specifically that Jesus is NOT the Son of God?
I can’t prove God exists. Is the fact that you don’t have proof; therefore, you don’t believe He does exist, supposed to be of some import to me?
Yes
Thanks LogicalThinking. The point is they cannot prove their claims. So if they have no proof/evidence for the very underlying claim of christianity why are we still debating? IMO this site serves as a platform to reach theists who come here. To open their eyes to this very point. Really, why else would we be here? Every time we engage in a debate without pointing out this 'truth' about religion we do our opponents a great service.
*"On the other hand, we have people who are believers who are so completely sold on the literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible that they are rejecting very compelling scientific data about the age of the earth and the relatedness of living beings." Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D.
*The Atheist has the comfort of no fears for an afterlife and lacks any compulsion to blow himself up.
* Science flies to you the moon.... religion flies you into buildings.
* Faith isn’t a virtue; it is the glorification of voluntary ignorance.

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Re: Proof of the Christian God

Post #15

Post by marco »

logical thinking wrote:

And if you can't verify them, how can you distinguish them from other unverified claims that you don't believe in, like for example the claim that the Archangel Gabriel talked to Mohammed and told him specifically that Jesus is NOT the Son of God?
Yes, this is a good point. I don't care if people believe in what seem to be fictions. I do care when they want to kill me for not subscribing to their club. Therefore it is important to get to grips with supernatural claims. What can be clearly shown is that Islam and Christianity cannot both be right. Perhaps tossing a coin in the air and Letting Allah or Yahweh decide would eliminate some of the warfare.

It is surely time for everyone to move into the 21st century and take their donkeys and camels with them.

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Re: Proof of the Christian God

Post #16

Post by RonE »

[Replying to post 14 by marco]

Thank you Marco. That is exactly the point.

This topic has been largely ignored by the theists for what I believe is a perfectly valid reason. They cannot handle a demand for evidence of their extraordinary supernatural claims. I am working on thestudent in the current topic "what does intelligent design prove?".

Yes, I have singled-out thestudent for this debating experiment because of his creationist debating style, the results should be enlightening. So far I'd say it's been predictable.
*"On the other hand, we have people who are believers who are so completely sold on the literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible that they are rejecting very compelling scientific data about the age of the earth and the relatedness of living beings." Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D.
*The Atheist has the comfort of no fears for an afterlife and lacks any compulsion to blow himself up.
* Science flies to you the moon.... religion flies you into buildings.
* Faith isn’t a virtue; it is the glorification of voluntary ignorance.

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Re: Proof of the Christian God

Post #17

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 7 by JLB32168]

And yet, you know it. So there is some element of the natural that allows you to know the supernatural. What is it? What is the proof that allows you to know better than, for example; me?

Respectfully submitted,
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.

You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

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