Is Jesus Good? Is Satan Evil?

[Simon_Peter]

Here are some facts:

We as humans are imperfect
We have limited perception
We have limited knowledge

What I don’t know is this:

Is Satan, Evil?
Is Jesus, Good?

I need to understand the meaning of ‘Good’ and ‘Evil’. So when I talk about Good and Evil, I understand what it is. Until I know these two things, I will not know if Jesus is Good, or if Satan is bad.

[JoeyKnothead]

I agree. That is part of the Christian faith too, you have to realize your mistake or take responsibility for it, and try to not do it again. But what Christians believe is that the sin is still there, kind of just sitting there in your past, and as long as a person has sinned, they are a sinner. I'm one too, I'm not saying Christians don't sin. But we believe Jesus came to get rid of our sins. We still have to try not to sin again, but we don't have to worry too much about it because Jesus took them all away, even future sins.

This is a recognition by religious 'elders' that folks are folks, and they will generally act of their own accord. It would not serve the purpose of organized religion to expel you over your sin. There would be so many expulsions the church would cease to exist. So a compromise is created whereby the 'sinner' is forgiven, but the church maintains a record of the 'sin'. In such manner the church can continue to profit off individuals with questionable pasts. Its one thing to keep a record of crimes, but when keeping a record of 'sin' organized religion has a great ability to track others' sins, and an inability to track its own. Where organized religion has finally apologized for its past deeds, it has done so begrudginly, belatedly, and only in the face of overwhelming outrage and evidence.

Religion has much to lose by the total condemnation of the sinner. Where it is unwilling to forgive, it loses a potential convert, a potential paying devotee. So by forgiving sin, organized religion is better able to fill its coffers by those who have done wrong, and fear the hell they are (allegedly) about to receive. Why give up a revenue source simply because they can't adhere to the strict dictates one has laid down? History has shown religious forgiveness can be had with a gold coin, simply because man requires funding for his endeavors.

So what ya do is set up a system whereby folks can be absolved of their sins. How? Come to church every so often, put some money in a plate, and thank God that you are not condemned like those who don't come, and don't pay. Its a beautiful, near fool-proof system. The only problem it has is when folks begin to think for themselves, and question the many outrageous claims of the particular religious text. Then ya just claim these folks to be 'blind to faith', lacking something or another, 'hating God', 'Satan himself, right there staring at ya'. Anything to condemn those who have come to the best possible conclusion they can.

You further claim that only 'moral' people will follow your particular brand of religion. You claim only your God is the giver, the maker of morals. All the while you suppress any dissent, you oppress any opposer, you outright kill to enforce your God belief. Only when the masses have been stricken with the fear of their own oppression will you relent. Then when this day comes, you declare victory for a God who is so benevolent, so forgiving, so kind, so just, so moral.

Religion has its ways, 'and they are legion'. Have you ever noticed that many religions condemn knowledge? They despise knowledge. Abhor it. Admonish it. All the thesauri and dictionari in the world do not contain enough words to accurately describe the hatred some religions have for knowledge. Why? Because with knowledge it can be shown that organized religion is more corrupt, more fallible, more needing of damnation than all the criminals that support it.

The shame of it all is that good, loving, wonderful, caring, honest people would fall for the beliefs of a religion that has itself committed so many atrocities in its own God's name. They would not, could not, can not fathom the destruction wrought by the very (human) words of their own God.

We gotta stop this. We must holler it from all forms of the public square, "Quit calling your God so great, when he allows so many to act so violently in His name. Stop claiming your God so superior He would allow oppression in His name. Speak up, declare your God as good, and then condemn the violence done in His name. Condemn those who espouse hatred because they think their God would approve. Disavow those who say by oppressing others God would be made to smile."

Make humanity smile. Make your neighbor smile. Make this a world where people don't fear for their thoughts. Make it so people don't have to hide their views from the oppressor. Make it so the oppressor fears their very existence.

Is God evil? Is Jesus evil? I can't prove either way. I do know this, there are many who would think nothing of committing evil in the name of their God.

[Goat]

I'm not gonna lie, I make mistakes all the time. I am trying not to though. All Christians make mistakes in their daily lives. I can see why it would bug you that some don't change their behavior. I think trying is more important than completely succeeding though.

Actually, it isn't merely not changing their behavior, but the insistent they still are better than people who do try, because they chant about the 'blood of Christ covering them in their sins"

[onefaith]

Joey - whoa. You've got lots of stuff to say, don't you?
The only thing I got out of that was that the church keeps records of people's sins. That's not true. I've never been to a church that does that. Maybe that's something Catholic churches do? I dunno.
The church is there to teach and to encourage. That's basically it. It's not some business that's trying to stay in business. It's a bunch of Christians coming together to pray together, worship together, encourage each other.
I also want to encourage you.

Goat- I realize that it's a problem when people think they are better than other's because their sins are washed away. While Jesus has washed their sins away, when people think they're better because of it, they're basically giving credit to themselves and taking away the credit from Jesus.
It's good that non-christians try to be better people. But good works alone aren't what get people to heaven.

[Goat]

Joey - whoa. You've got lots of stuff to say, don't you?
The only thing I got out of that was that the church keeps records of people's sins. That's not true. I've never been to a church that does that. Maybe that's something Catholic churches do? I dunno.
The church is there to teach and to encourage. That's basically it. It's not some business that's trying to stay in business. It's a bunch of Christians coming together to pray together, worship together, encourage each other.
I also want to encourage you.

Goat- I realize that it's a problem when people think they are better than other's because their sins are washed away. While Jesus has washed their sins away, when people think they're better because of it, they're basically giving credit to themselves and taking away the credit from Jesus.
It's good that non-christians try to be better people. But good works alone aren't what get people to heaven.

And how do you know that? That is a statement of faith, which is pretty Christian of the Pauline and Martin Luther type.. but how do you know it's true? Because Paul said so? Because it was repeated by Martin Luther?

[onefaith]

Which quote exactly are you talking about?

[JoeyKnothead]

Joey - whoa. You've got lots of stuff to say, don't you? Razz
The only thing I got out of that was that the church keeps records of people's sins. That's not true. I've never been to a church that does that. Maybe that's something Catholic churches do? I dunno.
The church is there to teach and to encourage. That's basically it. It's not some business that's trying to stay in business. It's a bunch of Christians coming together to pray together, worship together, encourage each other.
I also want to encourage you.

Its only been fairly recent that religion has become less oppressive. As mankind has gained new knowledge, and become more aware of just how important freedom is, we've seen the powers of organized religion reduced. But it has not come without struggle, organized religion has to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into modern times.
Look at how long its taken for the Catholic Church to recognize the ToE. Only with the last Pope was there ever official recognition of this, and only within the past month did they apologize for trying to suppress Darwin himself, through various means (though thankfully not physical).
The church values 'tradition' because changes in knowledge, and how we act toward others often cause the church to become weakened. Humans are humans, as the leaders of these institutions have seen their influence wane, they have often tried to discredit, libel, defame, malign, and otherwise suppress any idea that contradicts their hold on ideas and power.
Then there are the outright lies and misinformation employed. When creationism was thoroughly discredited, it became intelligent design, when this too was discredited, it became teach the controversy, when this was discredited it became academic freedom.
Individuals who hold religious ideas are not so much to be feared, and they tend to be good folks on their own. It is the institutions of religion that I find so abhorrent. The lies, the obfuscation, the distortions, the slanders, they are all an indictment of organized religion.
Then there is the issue of using the courts in order to try to inflict one's religious based morals onto others. Statements placed into normally secular institutions and works. 'In God We Trust' on the Nation's money. I tend to mark these out with a Sharpie, specifically because it is an unconstitutional endorsement of religion. The outlawing of alcohol sales on Sundays is another one. Here in Ga, the only defense our Governor could come up with is that it "Teaches time management". He's a political coward, and a liar. He doesn't drink because of his religion, and he thinks nothing of suppressing the rights of others in order to enforce his notion of morals.
There's also the insertion of 'Under God' into the Pledge of Allegiance. I am unable to pledge allegiance to my own country because the religious majority deems it necessary that I believe in God in order to be a citizen. This is exactly expressed by George H.W. Bush, when he said atheists should not be considered patriots, or citizens. A statement that to my knowledge he has yet to deny, or rescind.
The religious institutions, through their majority power, have suppressed, oppressed, condemned, and slandered its way into our governmental institutions, and I judge them by this. And I say they have no right trying to enforce their ancient notions on me.

[onefaith]

At least the majority of the oppressions you listed weren't from the religion itself, but from people or small groups of people. Whoever wrote the pledge of allegience would have been responsible for "under God". The founding fathers would be responsible for "In God we Trust". George H.W. Bush said atheists shouldn't be considered patriots or citizens (what about all the atheist troops? How can he say they're not patriotic?). God isn't the one who did any of those things. While I think it's good that our nation has a Christian foundation, I don't think atheists or people of other beliefs should be treated like that.

[bernee51]

The founding fathers would be responsible for "In God we Trust".

Actually 'In God We Trust" on your coinage appeared in th e50's as a result of the 'fight against godless communism'.

While I think it's good that our nation has a Christian foundation,...

Perhaps some study of your nation's history and foundation would show that the 'christian foundation' is a bit of a myth.

I don't think atheists or people of other beliefs should be treated like that.

And if more thought like you the world would be a less divisive place.

[onefaith]

Actually 'In God We Trust" on your coinage appeared in th e50's as a result of the 'fight against godless communism'.

ok.

Perhaps some study of your nation's history and foundation would show that the 'christian foundation' is a bit of a myth.

I didn't mean it was perfect or completely Christian. I believe many of the founding fathers were Christians though, am I correct?

[Goat]

At least the majority of the oppressions you listed weren't from the religion itself, but from people or small groups of people. Whoever wrote the pledge of allegience would have been responsible for "under God". The founding fathers would be responsible for "In God we Trust". George H.W. Bush said atheists shouldn't be considered patriots or citizens (what about all the atheist troops? How can he say they're not patriotic?). God isn't the one who did any of those things. While I think it's good that our nation has a Christian foundation, I don't think atheists or people of other beliefs should be treated like that.

The founding fathers were not involved in 'in god we trust'. It was added to some coins in 1861 during the civil war, due to an increased number of requests. It was not added to paper money until the 1950's, when we were fighting the 'evil atheist communists'.