7 Ridiculous Claims of YECs.

[cfiott]

Elsewhere on this forum is a debate entitled "What are the 7 REDICULOUS claims of evolution". The only ridiculous thing there is the misspelling of ridiculous. I think one of the better places to look for ridiculous claims is the Book of Genesis, which is the creed of Young Earth Creationists. I will limit myself to seven claims:

1. That Earth came into existence prior to the sun (Genesis 1:1-19) and that light itself, the very source of which IS the sun (Genesis 1:17), was created before its own source came into being (Genesis 1:3 and 16). This is like playing a movie in reverse where you first light a fire and then you get the match!

2. That all creatures were created in the space of 24 hours. One of the fastest evolutions of animals is that of a wolf evolving into 400 breeds of dogs. This took 15,000 years. Most other evolutions took much longer. And YECs claim that everything happened in a day!

3. That Earth and all its creatures have been around for only 6000 years. So the dinosaurs became extinct 65 million years before God made a world for them!

4. That, when he killed Abel, Cain managed to dupe God into thinking that there already existed a bunch of hostile people outside the Garden of Eden (Genesis 4:14-15). Now who created those people, I wonder!

5. That a 600-year-old Noah traveled to the ends of the world to collect a pair of every living creature in the space of seven days (Genesis 7:1-5). I suppose he flew, I mean went, to the Arctic for a couple of polar bears, to South America for llamas, to Australia for kangaroos, to Indonesia for Komodo dragons, and so on. Lucky for Noah God spared the creatures of the water, so he didn’t have to catch whales or dive for giant squid.

6. That prior to Noah nobody had ever seen a rainbow (Genesis 9:12-14)!

7. That an almighty God believed that humans had the capability of reaching outer space just by building a tower (Genesis 11:6), no space suit required!

8. That... oops, sorry! My seven are up.

[Rathpig]

In my experience arguments with the young Earth group almost always end in either an emotional diatribe or a vanishing act. Since this thread was engaged on several points, I hope my experience doesn't hold true. However, at this point it appears my hope is fleeting.

[Fisherking]

You still haven't correctly stated what YEC's actually teach

Do you mean Young Earth (anything less than a few billion years runs counter to the deeply convergent information we already hold) Creationists (who believe, among other things, that design information cannot be acquired without intentional, intelligent construction -- something clearly refuted by countless examples in fast-breeding biota and Genetic Algorithms)?

Genetic algorithms refute purely naturalistic explainations

No they don't -- and I've pointed you to the topic that explains the reasons why they don't on numerous occasions: Can designs be evolved without intellectual contamination?. Despite this you still seem to prefer to parrot your unfounded assertion rather than risk losing it by engaging in that debate. This is not good debating Fisherking. The topic I've linked you to is only three pages long so far and the the argument is very simple. You should therefore have no problem refuting it if you understand the material well enough. Let's see you defend your assertion there.

First you have to understand that there are two separate algorithms involved. To make this clear let's say we want to write a computer program that we will call "A" that writes a program of its own called "B".

You want to be sure that ALL the intellect that goes into A is contained and does not enter the product B. Imagine a very simple model: we write a program that outputs random numbers....

Did any of the intellect we used to construct the program find its way into the pattern? Clearly it didn't, and this demonstrates precisely how there can be containment between the different "intellectual" entities involved in the process.

I agree with you here, why would I want to debate it?

Has any of God's intellect He used to construct the program found its way into life's pattern?

A genetic algorithm is a good example of a programmer writing a fairly simple program (the algorithm) and building a mechanism (a computer, a power conversion mechanism, ect) to so the design work can be carried out, possibly without intellectual contamination from the designer.

DNA is a great example of a programmer(God) writing an extremly complex program with numerous mechanisms(metabolism, photosynthesis, ect.) for energy harvest, conversion, ect. so that work can be accomplished, possibly without intellectual contamination from the designer. Now that I think about it, there might be a little intellectual contamination with certain designs produced by this complex algorithm(the human mind), but maybe the program was written to contaminate men with some the designer's intellect....

[Rathpig]

Does this supposed designer take full credit for the horrible instances where the programs fail to compile? Is poor or flawed design inherent in this programmer?

Harlequin ichthyosis might be one place to explain why the potter's hand was a bit wobbly on the wheel.




"Sin" in 5,4,3,2,.............

[micatala]

The thing I find ironic about ID is that it posits design where none needs to exist with relation to biological evolution, but seems to completely ignore the more powerful or compelling (to me anyway ) desigin that might be posited regarding the laws of the universe as present at the big bang.

It is at least more reasonable to me to consider that the nature of matter and space and the laws governing their interaction were the true 'elements of design' if any such elements exist. Of course objections can be made here, but at least intelligent design at this level is much more defensible than the anti-evolutionary version that is being pushed by the Discovery Institute.

In addition, if one assumes design at this 'initial stage' with no subsequent intervention necessary, then this certainly bespeaks of a much greater intelligence then the 'designer' posited by Dembski, Behe, and Wells, et. al.

[QED]

Has any of God's intellect He used to construct the program found its way into life's pattern?

Reply here

[QED]

The thing I find ironic about ID....

I've branched this off to a new topic:
Has the universe been Intelligently Designed?

[cfiott]

Dear Salt Agent

First of all the moderator didn’t exactly step in because of evidence but for what he interpreted to be a personal attack on Supersport. Your characterization of me as an intentional lair in your second quotation piece below is a much worse offense. (Moderator, please note.)

The moderator did agree with Supersport that evidence needs to be presented when called for, and so do I. I couldn't possibly present lengthy evidence for each of my seven points on my first post. That would have made it awfully long. I published evidence for my first point on October 23 and, as far as can see, nobody has refuted me on those. I can provide evidence for the other six points quite as easily but I suspect that opposition to my post has nothing to do with evidence. What creationists cite as “lack of evidence” is usually just an excuse for not being able to provide a decent argument of their own.

Dear Cfiott, you have some interesting points. I can't make assumptions about your formal training in either science or theology, so i will address specific problems with your post.
First of all, since this forum is Science and Religion, we will not use any of the common, "Because the Bible says so..." arguments, but simply address your points from science and logic. We will pretend for this thread that the Bible is completely a hoax, from the beginning to end, and give it the same level of truth as the Lord of the Rings book. The moderator has already stepped in and addressed your lack of evidence for claims. Before we debate any of the claims of Gandalf, or lets say the worldview of Hobbits, you need to start by correctly stating the claim that you want to refute. This is like me starting a debate about the Quran stating that the first Muslims were from space.

Just what are you talking about!???

You completely misunderstand what YEC's even claim, which either shows that you have no idea, or that you totally know and intentionally lie, so we will give you the benefit of the doubt. Again, for this thread, we are assuming that the whole Bible is a hoax, but we are addressing what it says--What YEC's believe.

1. That Earth came into existence prior to the sun (Genesis 1:1-19) and that light itself, the very source of which IS the sun (Genesis 1:17), was created before its own source came into being (Genesis 1:3 and 16). This is like playing a movie in reverse where you first light a fire and then you get the match!
The first phrase is correct, and then you add your own scientific commentary--" and that light itself, the very source of which IS the sun." Christians, believe that God himself is the source of life and that God is light. See Revelat 22:5: John 1:7, and I John 1:5. The fact that they believe the earth was made before the sun, is another reason why scientifically it is really difficult to have plants for four thousand years, or forty thousand years without the sun, much less animals. For this reason, many Christians believe this day to be literal.

How do you justify your stance that I completely misunderstand what YECs claim? Are you saying then that YECs don’t believe in the Bible’s literal account of creation? Or are you saying that YECs don’t believe in the six 24-hour days of creation? Have you started your own YEC sect? God may very well be your light, but the Bible indicates very clearly that Earth receives its physical light from the sun (Genesis 1:16: And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.)

2. That all creatures were created in the space of 24 hours. One of the fastest evolutions of animals is that of a wolf evolving into 400 breeds of dogs. This took 15,000 years. Most other evolutions took much longer. And YECs claim that everything happened in a day!


"That all creatures were created in the space of 24 hours." This may be from the Book of Mormon, or the Quran, but it is nowhere in the Bible that all creatures were created in the space of 24 hours. Some basic study of what you are trying to refute would be a great place to start, so we don't have to go through and explain why your starting points are all wrong. [We are still on the same page that the Bible is a complete hoax.] Then you say that one of the fastest evolutions is that of a wolf evolving into 400 breeds of dogs. This took 15,000 years." Where is your source? How do you know how long it took? Furthermore, a recent scientific study bred the modern day poodle with a wolf. Christians believe in microevolution-variation within species. This is not new genetic information being created, but speciation. The same with the variations of the beaks of finches on the Galapagos Islands. They are all still birds. We don't have lizards breeding with finches. In light of the fact that poodles can still breed with wolves is a pathetic scientific example of evolution. Do you have a mechanism that can get a fish to a parrot? Maybe genetic mutations? How many would we need? Maybe we should require exposure to radiation to increase the rate of mutations? Maybe you have a better mechanism?

I'm really amazed! The Bible says that some creatures were created in the fifth day and the others in the sixth (so ok, I should have said 48 hours instead of 24!). It utterly bewilders me to hear you say that the Bible doesn't say so!!!

Now, on the evolution piece, I am very glad that you guys are now coming around to accepting "microevolution". That's a good step forward. Now somehwere down the line you will realize that microevolution can't exist without macroevolution.

3. That Earth and all its creatures have been around for only 6000 years. So the dinosaurs became extinct 65 million years before God made a world for them!

Ok, you got this one correct. I would like to hear your explanation of how a whale is vertical in layers and layers of sediment that scientists insist were deposited over 20 million years or more. "The current uniformitarian (slow and gradual) model for diatomite deposition, as seen in the Guaymas Basin of the Gulf of California, is not capable of explaining the purity of the Lompoc diatomite...the deposition rate is too slow to avoid corrosion and scavenging of the bones. both of which are absent from the Lompoc whale bones."CEN Technical Journal, 9:244. Maybe there was a regional flood in California.

And I would like to hear your explanation of how dinosaurs became extinct 65 million years before God created them.

4. That, when he killed Abel, Cain managed to dupe God into thinking that there already existed a bunch of hostile people outside the Garden of Eden (Genesis 4:14-15). Now who created those people, I wonder!

Again, you completely miss this one. This is what is called Isogesis, reading into the text something that is not there at all. This may be your theory. Genesis chapter 5 states clearly that Adam and Eve had "other" sons and daughters. Nothing in the text says that that there were no other brothers between Cain and Abel, let alone sisters. It is completely likely and feasible that the siblings of Abel would have been angry and sought revenge. "outside the Garden of Eden."
They --Adam and Eve were already driven out of the Garden before they had Cain or Abel or Seth. [Genesis 3 24, and 4:1, the very next sentence of the text.]

I am quoting the Bible. You're the one doing eisegesis (I believe that's a better spelling for it). Your imagined scenario has no Biblical justification whatsoever. The banishment of Cain comes before any mention of new siblings and nowhere does the Bble indicate that any sibling followed Cain after his punishment. We have to stick with what the Bible says, and what the Bible says about Cain's feared slayers does not make any sense.

5. That a 600-year-old Noah traveled to the ends of the world to collect a pair of every living creature in the space of seven days (Genesis 7:1-5). I suppose he flew, I mean went, to the Arctic for a couple of polar bears, to South America for llamas, to Australia for kangaroos, to Indonesia for Komodo dragons, and so on. Lucky for Noah God spared the creatures of the water, so he didn’t taave to catch whales or dive for giant squid.

"Noah traveled to the ends of the world to collect a pair of every living creature in the space of seven days." The text of the hoax* you are trying to refute, clearly says that they would come to him. Also, according to secular and Christian scientists, some if not all of the continents were connected into a much larger land mass. This is due to the scientifically proven mechanism of plate tetektonicsccepted by Christians as well as Evolutionists. Maybe you have heard of the geologic phenomemon called Continental Drift.

Again, you lost me! How does this make it any easier for Noah to collect all those animals in such a short period of time? What’s your point?

[cfiott]

5. That a 600-year-old Noah traveled to the ends of the world to collect a pair of every living creature in the space of seven days (Genesis 7:1-5). I suppose he flew, I mean went, to the Arctic for a couple of polar bears, to South America for llamas, to Australia for kangaroos, to Indonesia for Komodo dragons, and so on. Lucky for Noah God spared the creatures of the water, so he didn’t taave to catch whales or dive for giant squid.

"Noah traveled to the ends of the world to collect a pair of every living creature in the space of seven days." The text of the hoax* you are trying to refute, clearly says that they would come to him. Also, according to secular and Christian scientists, some if not all of the continents were connected into a much larger land mass. This is due to the scientifically proven mechanism of plate tetektonicsccepted by Christians as well as Evolutionists. Maybe you have heard of the geologic phenomemon called Continental Drift.

Dear Salt Agent, first of all I don't think you can state that the Bible "clearly says that [the animals] would come to him". Let's look at the text:
6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark...
6:20 ...two of every sort shall come unto thee...
7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee....

So there you have it: in 6:19 he brings them, in 6:20 they come, and in 7:2 he takes them! Clear as mud!

But, anyway, it makes no difference. The point is it's logistically impossible for all those animals to make it to ark from all over the world in such a short time.

Now, two questions for you:

1. Where is your evidence that "some if not all of the continents were connected into a much larger land mass" during Noah's time? I think you're off by a few million years.

2. It seems that you and I both accept the basic geologic phenomena of Planet Earth (the continental drifts and the collisions of tectonic plates and so forth). How do you explain the fact that the world is now so different from the way God made it? Is he not done creating it? Is he still trying to get it right? Is it evolution? (You're not going to call this "microevolution, are you?)