So what would make a secular scientist believe in GOD?

[LittleNipper]

Presented here, so that we may have a place to start is one biochemist's (Dr, Sy Garte) journey from staunch atheist to firm believer: So, why are you a believer, or what would you need to become a believer in some Creator GOD.

[Miles]

Lookee here: I find it sad that I have it to explain for rather intelligent people like you but . .

---- only Mr. Smith had his First Vision not once but several Times, aged back and forth while having the lot of them and also had his First Vision always different.
That it was possible for ---- only Mr. Smith to have his First Vision (normally logically an one time event) More than once and in diffrent ways and lifeages is a miracle of God in itself that should erase your doubts.

---- only Mr. Smith was deemed worthy by the angel Moroni to unearth the Golden Plates from the Hill Cumorah!

---- only Mr. Smith understood perfectly the lost language Reformed Egyptian!

---- only Mr. Smith owned the Urim and Thummin needed to decipher the Golden Plates.

---- only Mr. Smith could see the Holy Letters in his Magical hat owned by ---- only Mr. Smith.

That Moroni appeared to ---- only Mr. Smith is the ultimate proof that there were real prophests back then, because Moroni himself was one of them.

The fact that Moroni appeared to ---- only Mr. Smith is proof enough that all is true, for ---- only Mr. Smith was worth to receive and master all of that because ---- only Mr. Smith was the greatest Prophet of all time because that is written from his own hand in the Joseph Smith bible, restored in the way it was written by Jesus personally!!!

I know that you are being facetious. I enjoy good sarcasm. And I realize that you know that Jesus didn't actually write any of the New Testament personally. The HOLY SPIRIT cause CHRIST's some among HIS disciples to remember and write down what HE had said after HE ascended back into heaven. John 14:26
But THE COMFORTER (also known as the HOLY SPIRIT), whom the Father will send in my name, HE shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I've been telling you. John 16:17 But I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I am leaving; for if I do not leave, THE HELPER will not come to you; but if I go, I will send HIM to you.

So, you believe John 16:17 because he wrote it down, but not Joseph Smith? He wrote down that you could believe him. What's the difference here?

Well, part of the difference is that John with the HOLY SPIRIT to inspire him wrote the book of John. John actually knew Jesus. He walked along with Him while he was on this earth. Mr. Smith, claims that an angel showed him where the plates were and then Mr. Smith apparently used his hat to decipher/translate what the plates said. Mr. Smith didn't write the supposed book of Mormon. And it seems odd that GOD could not have used multiple believers to do what Joseph Smith supposedly did. I mean the entire Bible is made up of the writings of say 40 individuals. Even while Moses penned the first 5 books of the Bible (he didn't copy someone else's work). Aaron was the first high priest, and Joshua was the second in command and became the general. GOD didn't stick everything in the hands of one individual.

religion... smh...

I'm not sure if you are for real or a Poe, but this is what is going on:

One guy writes a claim in a book: "I believe it! He says he knew Jesus!"
Another guy writes a claim in a book: "That's a ridiculous claim! He didn't even meet Jesus - just an angel!"


Honestly, it's painful to see the motivated reasoning so obvious and flawed. There is literally no logic behind it.

Honestly, Joseph Smith claimed to be a prophet. What does the Bible say about prophets? Deuteronomy 13:1-5
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

Here is what Mr. Smith taught and the LDS still accept it: https://www.ldsliving.com/3-fascinating ... ob/s/82249

Deuteronomy 18:22
When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

Here is what Joseph Smith prophesied and the results that prove him to be a false prophet according to the Bible: https://coldcasechristianity.com/writin ... eph-smith/

I'm sure you are aware that Mormons have answers to your criticisms.

Just as Christians claim they have answers.

You don't seem to see that you are both the same. Muslims, Mormons, Christians, etc. You are all relying on unverifiable claims by other people.

The Christian's answers are found in the Bible. The historical places mentioned in the Bible are researched and discovered.

Same can be said for most religions. I know your Christian apologists don't tell you this, but it's true. It's all about Christian Exceptionalism. Christians must believe they are unique among religions (as do other religions feel this way).

Certainly you are a smart fellow and realize there isn't a religion that preaches they AREN'T the truth!

True, but such religions stipulate that only their leaders have authority that comes from god directly to them alone. Christianity, says that GOD has the authority and imparts it to anyone/everyone who trusts in HIM.

Assuming you trust in HIM and have therefore been imparted with god's authority, what have you been doing with it? How have you exercised your authority in the last year or so, or even the last ten or fifteen years? If you haven't then what's the big deal in having it?

.

[LittleNipper]

I know that you are being facetious. I enjoy good sarcasm. And I realize that you know that Jesus didn't actually write any of the New Testament personally. The HOLY SPIRIT cause CHRIST's some among HIS disciples to remember and write down what HE had said after HE ascended back into heaven. John 14:26
But THE COMFORTER (also known as the HOLY SPIRIT), whom the Father will send in my name, HE shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I've been telling you. John 16:17 But I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I am leaving; for if I do not leave, THE HELPER will not come to you; but if I go, I will send HIM to you.

So, you believe John 16:17 because he wrote it down, but not Joseph Smith? He wrote down that you could believe him. What's the difference here?

Well, part of the difference is that John with the HOLY SPIRIT to inspire him wrote the book of John. John actually knew Jesus. He walked along with Him while he was on this earth. Mr. Smith, claims that an angel showed him where the plates were and then Mr. Smith apparently used his hat to decipher/translate what the plates said. Mr. Smith didn't write the supposed book of Mormon. And it seems odd that GOD could not have used multiple believers to do what Joseph Smith supposedly did. I mean the entire Bible is made up of the writings of say 40 individuals. Even while Moses penned the first 5 books of the Bible (he didn't copy someone else's work). Aaron was the first high priest, and Joshua was the second in command and became the general. GOD didn't stick everything in the hands of one individual.

religion... smh...

I'm not sure if you are for real or a Poe, but this is what is going on:

One guy writes a claim in a book: "I believe it! He says he knew Jesus!"
Another guy writes a claim in a book: "That's a ridiculous claim! He didn't even meet Jesus - just an angel!"


Honestly, it's painful to see the motivated reasoning so obvious and flawed. There is literally no logic behind it.

Honestly, Joseph Smith claimed to be a prophet. What does the Bible say about prophets? Deuteronomy 13:1-5
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

Here is what Mr. Smith taught and the LDS still accept it: https://www.ldsliving.com/3-fascinating ... ob/s/82249

Deuteronomy 18:22
When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

Here is what Joseph Smith prophesied and the results that prove him to be a false prophet according to the Bible: https://coldcasechristianity.com/writin ... eph-smith/

I'm sure you are aware that Mormons have answers to your criticisms.

Just as Christians claim they have answers.

You don't seem to see that you are both the same. Muslims, Mormons, Christians, etc. You are all relying on unverifiable claims by other people.

The Christian's answers are found in the Bible. The historical places mentioned in the Bible are researched and discovered.

Same can be said for most religions. I know your Christian apologists don't tell you this, but it's true. It's all about Christian Exceptionalism. Christians must believe they are unique among religions (as do other religions feel this way).

Certainly you are a smart fellow and realize there isn't a religion that preaches they AREN'T the truth!

True, but such religions stipulate that only their leaders have authority that comes from god directly to them alone. Christianity, says that GOD has the authority and imparts it to anyone/everyone who trusts in HIM.

Assuming you trust in HIM and have therefore been imparted with god's authority, what have you been doing with it? How have you exercised your authority in the last year or so, or even the last ten or fifteen years? If you haven't then what's the big deal in having it?

.

For one I'm speaking with you now and I've spoken to others then. I've never needed the Pope nor some "modern" prophet.

[brunumb]

PLEASE folks. If you don't need to quote the entire post you are responding to, either select what you need or simply use the "reply without quote" button.

[Miles]

Assuming you trust in HIM and have therefore been imparted with god's authority, what have you been doing with it? How have you exercised your authority in the last year or so, or even the last ten or fifteen years? If you haven't then what's the big deal in having it?

.

For one I'm speaking with you now and I've spoken to others then. I've never needed the Pope nor some "modern" prophet.

WH . . . . . . . . . .AT ?

.

[Clownboat]

For one I'm speaking with you now and I've spoken to others then. I've never needed the Pope nor some "modern" prophet.

WH . . . . . . . . . .AT ?

.

It reads as if LittleNipper was unable to speak to people on the internet. Now that they have a god's authority, they are now able to speak to people on the internet.
I note that this could happen if a person were to confuse WiFi with a god. Perhaps they were given the WiFi password (the authority) just recently?

It's all very tough to understand though, but that at least would make sense. Now it's just a matter of figuring out what a Pope (NIC card?) and 'modern' prophet (patch cable?) is.

[boatsnguitars]

Lookee here: I find it sad that I have it to explain for rather intelligent people like you but . .

---- only Mr. Smith had his First Vision not once but several Times, aged back and forth while having the lot of them and also had his First Vision always different.
That it was possible for ---- only Mr. Smith to have his First Vision (normally logically an one time event) More than once and in diffrent ways and lifeages is a miracle of God in itself that should erase your doubts.

---- only Mr. Smith was deemed worthy by the angel Moroni to unearth the Golden Plates from the Hill Cumorah!

---- only Mr. Smith understood perfectly the lost language Reformed Egyptian!

---- only Mr. Smith owned the Urim and Thummin needed to decipher the Golden Plates.

---- only Mr. Smith could see the Holy Letters in his Magical hat owned by ---- only Mr. Smith.

That Moroni appeared to ---- only Mr. Smith is the ultimate proof that there were real prophests back then, because Moroni himself was one of them.

The fact that Moroni appeared to ---- only Mr. Smith is proof enough that all is true, for ---- only Mr. Smith was worth to receive and master all of that because ---- only Mr. Smith was the greatest Prophet of all time because that is written from his own hand in the Joseph Smith bible, restored in the way it was written by Jesus personally!!!

I know that you are being facetious. I enjoy good sarcasm. And I realize that you know that Jesus didn't actually write any of the New Testament personally. The HOLY SPIRIT cause CHRIST's some among HIS disciples to remember and write down what HE had said after HE ascended back into heaven. John 14:26
But THE COMFORTER (also known as the HOLY SPIRIT), whom the Father will send in my name, HE shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I've been telling you. John 16:17 But I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I am leaving; for if I do not leave, THE HELPER will not come to you; but if I go, I will send HIM to you.

So, you believe John 16:17 because he wrote it down, but not Joseph Smith? He wrote down that you could believe him. What's the difference here?

Well, part of the difference is that John with the HOLY SPIRIT to inspire him wrote the book of John. John actually knew Jesus. He walked along with Him while he was on this earth. Mr. Smith, claims that an angel showed him where the plates were and then Mr. Smith apparently used his hat to decipher/translate what the plates said. Mr. Smith didn't write the supposed book of Mormon. And it seems odd that GOD could not have used multiple believers to do what Joseph Smith supposedly did. I mean the entire Bible is made up of the writings of say 40 individuals. Even while Moses penned the first 5 books of the Bible (he didn't copy someone else's work). Aaron was the first high priest, and Joshua was the second in command and became the general. GOD didn't stick everything in the hands of one individual.

religion... smh...

I'm not sure if you are for real or a Poe, but this is what is going on:

One guy writes a claim in a book: "I believe it! He says he knew Jesus!"
Another guy writes a claim in a book: "That's a ridiculous claim! He didn't even meet Jesus - just an angel!"


Honestly, it's painful to see the motivated reasoning so obvious and flawed. There is literally no logic behind it.

Honestly, Joseph Smith claimed to be a prophet. What does the Bible say about prophets? Deuteronomy 13:1-5
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

Here is what Mr. Smith taught and the LDS still accept it: https://www.ldsliving.com/3-fascinating ... ob/s/82249

Deuteronomy 18:22
When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

Here is what Joseph Smith prophesied and the results that prove him to be a false prophet according to the Bible: https://coldcasechristianity.com/writin ... eph-smith/

I'm sure you are aware that Mormons have answers to your criticisms.

Just as Christians claim they have answers.

You don't seem to see that you are both the same. Muslims, Mormons, Christians, etc. You are all relying on unverifiable claims by other people.

The Christian's answers are found in the Bible. The historical places mentioned in the Bible are researched and discovered.

Same can be said for most religions. I know your Christian apologists don't tell you this, but it's true. It's all about Christian Exceptionalism. Christians must believe they are unique among religions (as do other religions feel this way).

Certainly you are a smart fellow and realize there isn't a religion that preaches they AREN'T the truth!

True, but such religions stipulate that only their leaders have authority that comes from god directly to them alone. Christianity, says that GOD has the authority and imparts it to anyone/everyone who trusts in HIM.

It amazing there can be so many fallacies in such a short statement.

1. Christianity, as you call it, was developed by leaders.
2. Christianity can declare anything it wants. It doesn't make it true.
3. Not all religions have clergy: Wicca, Buddhism, etc.
4. Also, "Islamic religious leaders do not "serve as intermediaries between mankind and God", have "process of ordination", nor "sacramental functions"."
5. Where in the Bible does it say what you say it does?
6. By what authority do you speak of the Bible?

[oldbadger]

Presented here, so that we may have a place to start is one biochemist's (Dr, Sy Garte) journey from staunch atheist to firm believer: So, why are you a believer, or what would you need to become a believer in some Creator GOD.

Deism must attract some scientists, I would think.

[totokuto12]

The Bible, particularly in Deuteronomy 13:1-5, provides guidance on how to evaluate prophets. It warns that even if a prophet performs signs and wonders, if they encourage following other gods, they are not to be trusted. The passage emphasizes loyalty to God and adherence to His commandments, suggesting that false prophets should be rejected and removed from the community.

[oldbadger]

The Bible, particularly in Deuteronomy 13:1-5, provides guidance on how to evaluate prophets. It warns that even if a prophet performs signs and wonders, if they encourage following other gods, they are not to be trusted. The passage emphasizes loyalty to God and adherence to His commandments, suggesting that false prophets should be rejected and removed from the community.

Well, I expect that such people were rejected, sure.
But would eject such a person today, and from where, and by what rule?

Where I live there are agnostics, Bahá'ís, Several kinds of Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists, The odd Deist, Sikhs and probably others......who to eject?

[Purple Knight]

what would you need to become a believer in some Creator GOD.

Proof that one being can have moral lordship over another. Creator does not necessarily mean God.

In other words, proof that there are some circumstances in which I could walk up to some other person and demand he acts as I please, because I say, and I don't owe him an explanation or any reciprocity.