topaz wrote:Isnt it correct that sin must be repented of, then society will accept us irregardless of our past. Instead, the gays are pushing it down the throat of society to ACCEPT SIN.
McCulloch wrote:No. Gays and other human rights advocates, are pushing the idea that legal prohibitions and discrimination based solely on religion are not acceptable.
Da 7:25 wrote:And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
topaz wrote:The above verse tells me that God would not find your reasoning acceptable.
topaz wrote:Since this sin has been made legal, what right does a court of law has to convict murderers, perjurers, false witnesses, ? It smacks of double standards.
McCulloch wrote:The laws of your country (assuming the USA) were not made to uphold the religious idea of sin. The laws were established to protect rights and to facilitate a well ordered society. There is no double standard in the secular state not enforcing by law the religious precepts of a specific brand of theist.
Ge 19:24 wrote:Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
Which is it? Do the religious have the moral right to impose their standard of ethics on the rest of society by force of law? Do the non-religious have the right to ignore God's pronouncements and tolerate sin in society?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good. First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians The truth will make you free. Gospel of John
For clarification: When we discuss the phrase "based in Biblical law," are we to assume only the principles on which the laws are based, or also the principles behind the punishments for breaking said laws? I think that the two cannot be separated without altering the mindset behind the biblical laws. Punishment for breaking laws must be considered. While laws against murder, theft, and lying are good for social order, punishment by death for all three (and a multitude of others as the Bible would have it) is not.
Secular laws should not be based on/in Biblical law. Beyond the reason that one cannot separate the principles behind the laws and the principles behind the punishments, we must consider that intentionally basing secular laws on religious laws is irresponsible in a free and open secular society. It's irresponsible because such actions by their very nature support the idea of a supreme entity (the god of the Bible in this case) to whom, all must bow down. While one can certainly respond that this doesn't mean everyone must believe in or worship G-d, they would miss the point. Basing secular laws on those of one religion creates a framework in which society not only acts, but also within society constructs its concepts of morality. Whether or not one worships or actively believes in G-d doesn't matter when they are subjected to G-d's laws and morality. For instance, it doesn't matter whether a child believes her/his kidnapper to be kind or evil, the fact of the matter is that the child is a kidnap victim subjected to a new reality beyond his/her control.
Further, when practically constructing laws based on the Bible, society must pick and choose which laws to implement or run the risk of, for example, destroying the economies of many coastal towns (for starters.) This means that not only is society subjected to one religion's view of reality, but to a small, but powerful minority view of how reality should be based on their interpretation of the text; or, even worse, what G-d "tells" them is correct.
Also, many claim that the ten commandments are in some way unique to the Bible. Certainly, I cannot think of those exact ten laws, in that exact order, called the Ten Commandments anywhere else, but the laws themselves (at least those not explicitly monotheistic in nature) are as old as society. It's ridiculous to assert that rules against lying, cheating, stealing, killing etc.. are Biblical simply because they are found in the Bible. This flies in the face of reason and should never seriously be touted as a reason for using the Bible to mold secular laws.
Men at ease have contempt for misfortune
as the fate of those whose feet are slipping.
Beta wrote:No , I do not think spiritual Laws (Commmandments) should be enforced by anybody
McCulloch wrote:So your answer to the question for debate is, "No, human laws should not be modeled after God's law" ?
Beta wrote:Your answer is not my answer McC. This world finds itself in quite a different situation to when God first gave the Com.to Israel. We should not for one moment think all the confusion accumulated since then can be sorted and settled in a sentence or two. In fact it is now insolvable , that is why we need the return of Christ.
Human societies need to make and enforce laws in order to function.
The question for debate is whether those laws should be based on the religious principles outlined in the Christian Bible or whether societies' laws should be based on some other principles.
If you say that the laws (spiritual laws) in the Bible should not be enforced by anybody then you are saying that secular laws should not be based on the Bible, no?
If you say that human societies' laws should be based on the Bible, but not all of the biblical laws, then you must be able to outline some kind of principle to determine which biblical laws we can safely ignore and which ones should be enforced.
Of course societies need laws to function and yes in my opinion they should be based on Bible-principles - but in the absence of Gods Laws which are based on love and need to be kept in love to God and Neighbour , we have no choice but to enforce secular Laws , what little good they are doing. The point being you can not force love on people and while it is absent from our hearts we will have a lawless society.
The Bible tells us this world will come to a sticky end and it will take Christ to return and sort it and us out. Of course we could turn to God now , instructions and warnings are there but nobody is really interested. However we are God's creation and it will get sorted.
Beta wrote:Of course societies need laws to function and yes in my opinion they should be based on Bible-principles - but in the absence of Gods Laws which are based on love and need to be kept in love to God and Neighbour, we have no choice but to enforce secular Laws , what little good they are doing. The point being you can not force love on people and while it is absent from our hearts we will have a lawless society.
Secular laws are doing quite well thank you. People who do not believe in God can love too.
Beta wrote:The Bible tells us this world will come to a sticky end and it will take Christ to return and sort it and us out. Of course we could turn to God now , instructions and warnings are there but nobody is really interested. However we are God's creation and it will get sorted.
That is one point of view. Another is that the Bible is wrong. There will be no resurrection. There will be no sky-daddy to come along an pull us out of whatever mess we have made, so we had better take care of things.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good. First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians The truth will make you free. Gospel of John
Hi McC , I guess this winds up our debate such as it was.
I will pray for you anyway, if you don't mind.
No doubt we'll meet again on another topic - I see you are pretty well spread out.
Beta wrote:Hi McC , I guess this winds up our debate such as it was.
Yes.
Beta wrote:I will pray for you anyway, if you don't mind.
I don't mind. What will you pray for, if you don't mind me asking?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good. First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians The truth will make you free. Gospel of John
Beta wrote:Hi McC , I guess this winds up our debate such as it was.
Yes.
Beta wrote:I will pray for you anyway, if you don't mind.
I don't mind. What will you pray for, if you don't mind me asking?
Actually there are a number of things I could pray for but I would not wish anything on you you are not happy with. So I'll ask God to grant you Truth upon which you can base your own decision .
Would that be acceptable ?
Beta wrote:Actually there are a number of things I could pray for but I would not wish anything on you you are not happy with. So I'll ask God to grant you Truth upon which you can base your own decision .
Would that be acceptable ?
Yes. But I, being a skeptic, was hoping that you would pray for something that could be validated.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good. First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians The truth will make you free. Gospel of John
Beta wrote:Hi McC , I guess this winds up our debate such as it was.
I will pray for you anyway, if you don't mind.
No doubt we'll meet again on another topic - I see you are pretty well spread out.
I always am curious when told "I'll pray for you"
Why did you have to tell him you would pray for him. Why not just pray for him without telling him...or doesn't it work if you don't tell him?
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"
William James quoting Dr. Hodgson
"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."
Beta wrote:Hi McC , I guess this winds up our debate such as it was.
I will pray for you anyway, if you don't mind.
No doubt we'll meet again on another topic - I see you are pretty well spread out.
I always am curious when told "I'll pray for you"
Why did you have to tell him you would pray for him. Why not just pray for him without telling him...or doesn't it work if you don't tell him?
Doesn't it say that when doing good deeds, one isn't to make it known they are doing them, but they should in fact do them anonymously. Would praying fall under this category. Sort of like donating to the poor, one should do it in the name of God, not the name of the person donating.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal. -Albert Pine Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself. -Harvey Fierstein
In my years as a Christian I have actually come across people who do NOT want to be prayed for , so I prefer to ask. Not sure if that is right or not biblically. Would it be right to remove their choice if they have strong feelings on the matter ?
