What Should Atheists Be Like?

harvey1 · Post by **harvey1** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:41 pm

Let's assume that someone genuinely has a problem conceiving of God to exist, and they in all honesty cannot accept such a view without feeling that they are sacrificing a rational depiction of the world. (That is, they aren't in any kind of deep psychological battle with God.)

Then, in that case, what would the proper reaction be for how they deal with religious issues and religious people? For example, let me take an improper reaction. It is well-documented that a few scientists spent years trying to promote an oscillating universe despite the physical problems with this. In effect, certain atheists (and agnostics) were endorsing a bad model for no apparent reason other than to give the impression that this was a very viable model to theism without mentioning the problems with this model. I would take this as a bad reaction toward religion by atheists. It hints at pettiness on the part of the non-believer to sway people away from a belief they do not share even though the approach they propose is conceptually problematic at best.

Supposing that theists are not always pleased with how some atheists approach religion in public, outside of asking them to convert, what should an atheist be like--i.e., speaking in terms of an ideal atheist?

(Btw, atheists can and should respond, but you might phrase your answer in terms of what you think the ideal atheist should be like with respect to how they promote their views without embarrassment to other atheists. For example, astrophysicist Lawrence Krause recently wrote an article where he criticized non-theists for acting too aggressively against religion because of its potential negative impact on science--referring to Dawkins. That would be an example of Krause voicing his opinion of the ideal atheist in terms of their approach to religious issues.)

Cmass · Post by **Cmass** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:34 pm

I spent 1 1/2 hours in the Christian store downtown today examining as much as possible as well as engaging in some Christian chat with the proprietors. I even took some cell phone pics of some of the books I found. (I will post them soon enough but I did run across Firedup4Jesus' Avatar! It is a book cover - don't recall the name)

Just so I don't piss off "Confused", I'll get to the point: Achilles is right on target. There is no way I could come to any other conclusion if the contents of that store were my primary or secondary or even tertiary information source. Simply no other conclusion possible.

Cathar1950 · Post by **Cathar1950** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:38 pm

cmass;

Just so I don't piss off "Confused", I'll get to the point: Achilles is right on target. There is no way I could come to any other conclusion if the contents of that store were my primary or secondary or even tertiary information source. Simply no other conclusion possible.

LOL
It is hard to argue with that.
A person has to know their limitations.

achilles12604 · Post by **achilles12604** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:59 pm

Confused wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:
As for your many universe theory, it is entirely theoretical and not very widely accepted. So believe it if you must. It simply shows that non-theists will accept ANYTHING before accepting God.
You only need a first cause and it may not be God. It maybe timeless, and spaceless but it may not be God. It only goes to show you theist will call anything God to prove their point.
He said, she said. You can't prove timeless and spaceless as anything more than a concept just as you can't prove god as anything more than a concept. However, an atheist doesn't blindly accept anything before accepting a god. To me, an atheist applies all knowns before making a semi-intelligent deduction. The presence or lack of presence of evidence doesn't support a claim of anything. Just because earth is here, doesn't imply there is a god. Just because certain cosmic phenomenon can be applied to a scientific equation doesn't imply that a big bang theory is an explanation of the earths beginning. They are all theories. Concepts to be explored. To say an atheist will accept any wild theory to avoid admitting to gods existence is ignorant at best to which I will take a major exception to. You may consider me ignorant because I can't accept your existence of a god yet, but I consider your judgement of me to go against what you god claims. We are all searching for some semblance of logic in this debate. To sum it up in some simple attacks against each other doesn't yield knowledge, just resentment.

Lets not confuse science with philosophy. Obviously no science can prove the existence of something outside of science. This is impossible. My explaination was a philosophical and logical one. So far I have heard a resounding "NA-uh" but not much in the way of a rebuttal. Using logic, what is wrong with my analysis that some first cause which fit those requirements caused the universe to begin?

achilles12604 · Post by **achilles12604** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:04 pm

Cmass wrote:I spent 1 1/2 hours in the Christian store downtown today examining as much as possible as well as engaging in some Christian chat with the proprietors. I even took some cell phone pics of some of the books I found. (I will post them soon enough but I did run across Firedup4Jesus' Avatar! It is a book cover - don't recall the name)

Just so I don't piss off "Confused", I'll get to the point: Achilles is right on target. There is no way I could come to any other conclusion if the contents of that store were my primary or secondary or even tertiary information source. Simply no other conclusion possible.

Arn't you assuming I used books from a Christian store to come to my conclusion regarding the first cause? What If I simply gave it a lot of logical thought and this seemed to fit well?

Cmass · Post by **Cmass** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:46 pm

Arn't you assuming I used books from a Christian store to come to my conclusion regarding the first cause? What If I simply gave it a lot of logical thought and this seemed to fit well?

Yes, I am implying this but left myself a way out in case you objected to my smartipantsness (sp?)

:

No, I have no idea where you get your information. Your profile says you are a Sage and for all I know you are a university level scholar who is merely toying with my pea brain. (Not difficult, according to my wife)

If the contents of the particular Christian store I visited were a source of information for me, and if I took that information to heart, there would be no other conclusion I could possibly draw. I would have to agree with you.

Note: This was not a place where dissent or alternative ideas were valued.

Every one of the several hundred books that I quickly scanned on a number of topics all came to the exact same conclusion. Even though the soothing music was nice, it was air conditioned, clean, properly lit and the staff was very friendly and talkative, it got painfully boring after a while which is why I eventually left. It was like looking at 300 slightly different hues of the exact same painting. (which ALL depict Jesus as a handsome, strong, tall, long-haired European with bright white teeth, a clean white robe and Birkenstocks) :sleep: When I visit Barnes & Noble I usually leave because I have a previous obligation, not because I am bored - especially if I start reading through their religious literature section.

So, once again, if I used the information in this store as any kind of guide, I would have no choice but to agree with you. $\:D/$

- Kapeesh?

achilles12604 · Post by **achilles12604** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:57 am

Cmass wrote:
Arn't you assuming I used books from a Christian store to come to my conclusion regarding the first cause? What If I simply gave it a lot of logical thought and this seemed to fit well?

Yes, I am implying this but left myself a way out in case you objected to my smartipantsness (sp?) :

No, I have no idea where you get your information. Your profile says you are a Sage and for all I know you are a university level scholar who is merely toying with my pea brain. (Not difficult, according to my wife)

If the contents of the particular Christian store I visited were a source of information for me, and if I took that information to heart, there would be no other conclusion I could possibly draw. I would have to agree with you.

Note: This was not a place where dissent or alternative ideas were valued. Every one of the several hundred books that I quickly scanned on a number of topics all came to the exact same conclusion. Even though the soothing music was nice, it was air conditioned, clean, properly lit and the staff was very friendly and talkative, it got painfully boring after a while which is why I eventually left. It was like looking at 300 slightly different hues of the exact same painting. (which ALL depict Jesus as a handsome, strong, tall, long-haired European with bright white teeth, a clean white robe and Birkenstocks) :sleep: When I visit Barnes & Noble I usually leave because I have a previous obligation, not because I am bored - especially if I start reading through their religious literature section.

So, once again, if I used the information in this store as any kind of guide, I would have no choice but to agree with you. $\:D/$

- Kapeesh?

Points taken.

Just FYI I have yet to buy a book . . . no wait thats not true. I have bought 1 book from Family christian Bookstores. Other than that I have bought the hundreds of others (maybe only a hundred I'm not sure) from Borders. You don't get much more secular than Borders Books. Incidentally, I have spent more on atheist books than Christian ones.

But Points taken none the less. I do enjoy our banter.

Cmass · Post by **Cmass** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:48 am

Out of curiosity, what is an "Atheist Book"?
Are there any specific titles you recommend?
- C

Cmass · Post by **Cmass** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:58 am

Just FYI I have yet to buy a book . . . no wait that's not true. I have bought 1 book from Family Christian Bookstores. Other than that I have bought the hundreds of others (maybe only a hundred I'm not sure) from Borders. You don't get much more secular than Borders Books. Incidentally, I have spent more on atheist books than Christian ones.

This means I have probably spent more time & money in the Christian stores than you. Yikes.
BTW: I have seen many, many Christian and other spiritual and religious stores but I have yet to see any atheist or even agnostic store. Has anyone seen one? And no, head shops are often run by "spiritual" people who believe the best way to get closer to God is through some good Maui Wowi. And, no again, Wicca shops, science shops....none are specifically related to the concept that God does not exist and religion is a fallacy.

achilles12604 · Post by **achilles12604** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:36 am

Cmass wrote:
Just FYI I have yet to buy a book . . . no wait that's not true. I have bought 1 book from Family Christian Bookstores. Other than that I have bought the hundreds of others (maybe only a hundred I'm not sure) from Borders. You don't get much more secular than Borders Books. Incidentally, I have spent more on atheist books than Christian ones.

This means I have probably spent more time & money in the Christian stores than you. Yikes.
BTW: I have seen many, many Christian and other spiritual and religious stores but I have yet to see any atheist or even agnostic store. Has anyone seen one? And no, head shops are often run by "spiritual" people who believe the best way to get closer to God is through some good Maui Wowi. And, no again, Wicca shops, science shops....none are specifically related to the concept that God does not exist and religion is a fallacy.

I think the closest thing I have seen to a secular store would be spencers or something like that. Freaky's maybe. Ohter than that you are limited to atheist sections like in Borders or Barnes and Nobels.

Cathar1950 · Post by **Cathar1950** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:45 am

I have worked for Borders Crown Book and a Buddaist book store.
I also worked for a Christian book store. What do you want to know.
I never worked at a porno book store.