Illegal Immigration Pt. 2

[The Persnickety Platypus]

I just have to bring this back up.

A sequel to the former topic:



Is erecting a fence across the southern border a horrible policy? Yes or yes?

Is it reasonable to demand thousands of dollars in naturalization fees from migrants fleeing $80 work weeks? No or no?

[Cephus]

Funny, there does not seem to be a sudden influx of illegal white collar Canadians. I suppose they just "want to be Americans"? Their highly expendable money and time have nothing to do with it?

Maybe it's the fact that the Canadian government isn't marching their poor across the border? Or didn't you think about that?

So now patriotism is a naturalization requirement. Not only that, but one must abandon all cultural ties to his/her home country.

Yes, actually, patriotism *IS* a naturalization requirement. Look it up. If you want to take part in what America can do for you, you need to actually want to be an American. Sorry that's so hard for you to comprehend.

[MagusYanam]

I realize that "the right way" is horrifying terminolgy to a liberal, but not to normal, decent, average Americans.

I am Jack's complete lack of horror. And it should come as no surprise since most often, 'liberal' and 'the right way' are synonymous.

BTW, No one in Canada is missed by Americans except maybe a few draft dodgers. Nothing would be better for America than liberals flooding over our northern borders to become Canadian citizens.

Of course, this confederation of illegal rebel colonies from the British Crown might not want to write off its intellectuals so lightly. As it is, many people in the United States are suffering from an inadequate educational system - do you want to add to the problem by encouraging a brain drain?

Welcome to Burger King, may I take your order?

Good luck eh!

Ditto.

[MagusYanam]

Maybe it's the fact that the Canadian government isn't marching their poor across the border?

Is the Fox government in Mexico really explicitly encouraging illegal emigration? If so, isn't that more reason to pay attention to Mexico's affairs?

Note that I'm not disagreeing with you here. But all the same, if Mexico is doing something they shouldn't which is interfering with our domestic situation, shouldn't we be doing something about it?

[sue]

While I sincerely enjoy The Persnickety Platypus' enthusiasm and optimism, I admit to being a little wary of his idea.

I'm not in favor of naturalizing all workers upon entrance because, as Cephus pointed out, many of them do not want to become United States citizens. Some of them find seasonal work, or a family situation back home requires their attention. Meanwhile they're sending a lot of the money that they earn in the United States back home, which in turn helps build Mexican infrastructure, which in turn diminishes the need for Mexican workers to find work up north.

In the wake of 9/11, many Americans (including myself) have national security concerns. But by allowing legal migrant workers from Canada and Mexico, we have helped to establish a cooperative spirit with our closest neighbors. By legally employing otherwise desperate young males, we help to diminish any hostility these same males might have felt toward their rich neighbors.

If we build a fence and checkpoints at the same time, we can manage the border more effectively. This would allow us to turn away known criminals, document the workers so that we have accurate statistics, and know that the people who are trying to sneak in are from countries other than Mexico or Canada, or they're criminals.

Citizenship would still be regulated, but I'd let the economists determine the numbers based on their estimate of our needs.

[Cephus]

Note that I'm not disagreeing with you here. But all the same, if Mexico is doing something they shouldn't which is interfering with our domestic situation, shouldn't we be doing something about it?

Certainly, but that "something" isn't just bending over and taking it like some people want us to. First and foremost, it's turning them all around and marching them right back across the border.

[MagusYanam]

Certainly, but that "something" isn't just bending over and taking it like some people want us to. First and foremost, it's turning them all around and marching them right back across the border.

This looks suspiciously like striking at the tail of the serpent where you should be aiming for the head. We turn them all back around and march them straight back across the border, what's to stop more people from arriving on the same impulse that drove the first waves of illegal immigrants?

I still don't think the immigrants themselves are the problem per se, but a symptom of still-greater problems in both Mexico and the United States. My interest isn't just in the 'immigration problem', as it were, but in its underlying causes: what do you think these are and how do you think they should be addressed?

I'm not in favor of naturalizing all workers upon entrance because, as Cephus pointed out, many of them do not want to become United States citizens. Some of them find seasonal work, or a family situation back home requires their attention. Meanwhile they're sending a lot of the money that they earn in the United States back home, which in turn helps build Mexican infrastructure, which in turn diminishes the need for Mexican workers to find work up north.

In the case of just seasonal labour, it seems like a different problem altogether. The question is how to encourage migrant worker programmes in Mexico as well as the U.S. so they are able to go through legal routes to work here.

[Cephus]

This looks suspiciously like striking at the tail of the serpent where you should be aiming for the head. We turn them all back around and march them straight back across the border, what's to stop more people from arriving on the same impulse that drove the first waves of illegal immigrants?

Unfortunately, the tail is all we have any direct control over. We cannot control Mexico's policies and the fact of the matter is that Fox's government is solving their economic problems by simply sending them north of the border so they don't have to deal with it. The best we can do is turn them all around and send them back and make Mexico come up with a different solution.

I still don't think the immigrants themselves are the problem per se, but a symptom of still-greater problems in both Mexico and the United States. My interest isn't just in the 'immigration problem', as it were, but in its underlying causes: what do you think these are and how do you think they should be addressed?

I do think the illegal immigrants are a problem because of the problems they directly cause to the US. In southwestern states, illegals make up between 30-50% of the total local prison population, they are closing hospitals, they are using public tax money for a free education, they clog our roads, etc. If that's not a problem, I don't know what is.

In the case of just seasonal labour, it seems like a different problem altogether. The question is how to encourage migrant worker programmes in Mexico as well as the U.S. so they are able to go through legal routes to work here.

None of them are interested in going through legal routes, that's the problem. If they were here legally, they'd have to be paid more and employers wouldn't want them. It is in the best interest of the migrant workers to remain illegal because it's the only way they get jobs. If they actually had to pay taxes and make a minimum wage, American employers could just hire Americans.

[MagusYanam]

I do think the illegal immigrants are a problem because of the problems they directly cause to the US. In southwestern states, illegals make up between 30-50% of the total local prison population, they are closing hospitals, they are using public tax money for a free education, they clog our roads, etc. If that's not a problem, I don't know what is.

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying it's not a problem, I'm saying that the problem doesn't exist in a vacuum. To break the laws of a country, one has to be ignorant, uncaring or desperate. My guesses as far as the illegal immigrants are concerned are primarily the first and the third. These people aren't leading pretty lives - we should be finding out what it is that is driving them to break the law and see what we can do on this side of the border to solve that problem. Strike at the head of the serpent, so to speak.

None of them are interested in going through legal routes, that's the problem. If they were here legally, they'd have to be paid more and employers wouldn't want them. It is in the best interest of the migrant workers to remain illegal because it's the only way they get jobs. If they actually had to pay taxes and make a minimum wage, American employers could just hire Americans.

You'd be surprised. A lot of the first-generation kids up in Kalamazoo have parents who worked as migrant farmers and farm-hands in the Valley in California. And they got there and were employed legally. If you offer both deals to a Mexican family, in probably 9 cases out of 10 I doubt they'd go with the high-risk, illegal deal over the safer, legal one. Given my experience, that is; I could be quite wrong.

[sue]

The best we can do is turn them all around and send them back and make Mexico come up with a different solution.

The Colorado Alliance for Immigration Reform estimates that the cost for providing welfare and assistance to illegal immigrants is over $15 billion a year.

The Center for American Progress estimates that the cost of deporting illegal immigrants would be $41 billion per year.

Mexicans make 11 times more money working illegally in the US than in Mexico - that's a powerful incentive to come back even if they are deported.

Mexico's modern economy is quite young...

1993 - The "ejido" land ownership system is abolished. Under the ejido system, stable private ownership of land was not allowed. This made farming difficult and generally communal. Agricultural technology in Mexico still lags.

01/1994 - NAFTA signed. Allows mostly free trade between Mexico, US, and Canada. US companies are allowed to invest in Mexican businesses.

12/1994 - Peso collapses, recession.

2000 - Vicente Fox elected. Before his election, the Institutional Revolutionary Party (PRI) monopolized Mexican politics for over 70 years and is known for electoral fraud, corruption, and bribery. Fox has not lived up to all of his campaign promises, probably in part because he's working with an opposition-led congress. But some improvements have occurred: avg economic growth of 1.8% per year, inflation has stabilized at about 3% (as opposed to double-digit inflation Mexico has previously seen), and has eliminated Mexico's budget deficit. Fox has not solved all of Mexico's problems, but he's put a dent in some of them and was a necessary transition from a single controlling party to a competitive party system.

July 2, 2006 - Mexican elections to take place. Fox cannot be re-elected because of a 6-year term limit.

I've seen estimates that it would take 30 years for Mexico's economy to stabilize to a point where illegal immigration is no longer beneficial enough to be worth the risk. If we were to help Mexico grow its economy at a faster rate, we could speed that up.

[sue]

I'm not in favor of naturalizing all workers upon entrance because, as Cephus pointed out, many of them do not want to become United States citizens. Some of them find seasonal work, or a family situation back home requires their attention. Meanwhile they're sending a lot of the money that they earn in the United States back home, which in turn helps build Mexican infrastructure, which in turn diminishes the need for Mexican workers to find work up north.

In the case of just seasonal labour, it seems like a different problem altogether. The question is how to encourage migrant worker programmes in Mexico as well as the U.S. so they are able to go through legal routes to work here.

I'm not sure what you mean; I think Mexico is in favor of its people working in the US if that's the only way to bring in the $18 billion a year that they send home. It's the US legislators that are causing the bottleneck. For a conservative government that is supposedly in favor of "small government", they sure are trying to implement a guest worker program with a lot of bureaucratic hoops to jump through.

On a somewhat related note, here's a decent article about the 2 leading candidates in Mexico's July 2nd election.