evolution

[rapture101]

Evolution.....I know that some people think that we evolved from apes or what ever. But my question is how did they get here if not by God.How did the earth get here? How did everything get here? from what I see everything got here by evolving.(thats the argument that some present me) But how did the first little spec of life get here?

[Dion]

Those who claim God was responsible for the creation of life are dishonest?

No. To say 'dishonest' implies that they have knowledge of the truth - though they are, in my view, mistaken, I accept their belief as perfectly genuine and honourable.

BUT

Almost invariably, yes; if they are Creationists (with a capital 'C'), though to be fair many don't realise it - they have simply swallowed the Creationist lies whole and regurgitate them later in discussions such as this. Some, however, unquestionably tell lies quite deliberately and knowingly.

I generally just feel sorry for those who have been robbed of a true understanding of the wonders of the living world by the dishonesty of a few religious fundamentalists. Many religious people have no problem in reconciling evolution with God and so are able to appreciate the real glory of nature.

[JJ]

If you can't see it does that mean God made it? It wasn't so long ago that the stars were dead kings looking down on us. Science is not perfect and much like religion it does take some faith. But is it more reasonable to believe that over an incredible amount of time natural selection brought about man or that some supreme being willed it? The religious answer always seems to be a question; who made the monkey...ok, who made the fish....ok, who made the water? Well, who made God then?

[harvey1]

If you can't see it does that mean God made it? It wasn't so long ago that the stars were dead kings looking down on us. Science is not perfect and much like religion it does take some faith. But is it more reasonable to believe that over an incredible amount of time natural selection brought about man or that some supreme being willed it? The religious answer always seems to be a question; who made the monkey...ok, who made the fish....ok, who made the water? Well, who made God then?

God doesn't need to be made for the similar reason that causation doesn't need to be caused. The concept already presupposes itself.

[JJ]

The causation argument does not apply to God. All things are caused by one thing....existence. Without existence there is no cause and no effect. For instance: Sun tanning causes cancer. The Sun causes sun tanning. Existence caused the Sun. What caused existence? I have my own theories. I actually recently submitted them to a religious belief site at www.isgodreligious.com. Vote for me!

[harvey1]

The causation argument does not apply to God. All things are caused by one thing....existence. Without existence there is no cause and no effect. For instance: Sun tanning causes cancer. The Sun causes sun tanning. Existence caused the Sun. What caused existence?

Well, that's sort of what I'm getting at here. When you ask what caused existence the answer seems rather obvious to me: the lack of existence would still be... er... existence. So, it isn't that existence is a Mystery, it just doesn't have a causal chain preceding it since the concept itself assumes the concept. There cannot possibly be a more primitive concept than what we mean by being. (Excuse me if I start sounding like Heidegger.) Anyway, this is why it is mistaken to ask, "who made God then?" The question itself assumes that God exists since the lack of God existing still requires God to exist for the question to make any sense.

[JJ]

Maybe discussing existence is like fishing in the bath tub....can be fun, but won't have any results. But I think they real point here is the question of God's existence is not so important when discussing evolution. God or no God, evolution, or rather natural selection, has happened and is happening. The question then becomes; are humans immune to natural selection?

[harvey1]

Maybe discussing existence is like fishing in the bath tub....can be fun, but won't have any results. But I think they real point here is the question of God's existence is not so important when discussing evolution. God or no God, evolution, or rather natural selection, has happened and is happening. The question then becomes; are humans immune to natural selection?

I am pretty certain that we are not immune to natural selection, but the speed by which we will control our own adaptations will far, far exceed the time that natural selection would have any demonstratable effect (i.e., X-men aside). Of course, if we destroy ourselves or are wiped out by some bio disaster, then natural selection might continue our evolution in a more natural post-apocalyptic world.

[Jose]

I am pretty certain that we are not immune to natural selection, but the speed by which we will control our own adaptations will far, far exceed the time that natural selection would have any demonstratable effect (i.e., X-men aside). Of course, if we destroy ourselves or are wiped out by some bio disaster, then natural selection might continue our evolution in a more natural post-apocalyptic world.

Your suggestion that we might destroy ourselves seems most likely. In that case, evolution will continue with whatever organisms survive the catastrophe we bring about--it just won't have us in it. Still...although this is interesting to speculate about, the reall question here is whether we are immune to natural selection. The answer is that we cannot be. We pass on our genes to our kids. Mutations happen. Some of us have more kids than others. Our environment changes a lot, and that influences how many kids people have, and how likely it is that any of them will make it to reproductive age. "Environment" includes more than just the climate; it's everything that each of us comes in contact with, and all the things that influence evrything around us. For us, it includes culture, religion, political maneurvering, mate choice, chemical pollution, etc. When we consider all these things, it's clear that there are lots of micro-environments that different populations of us live in--and therefore different selective pressures.

Every time a child is born with a genetic defect, and that child dies, that's natural selection in action. It's negative selection, which is easier to see than positive selection, but it is selection. Every time there is an epidemic, and some are killed while others survive, that's also natural selection in action. In Africa, there is documented diversity in the cell-surface protein that the AIDS virus uses to invade cells. People who carry a certain variation are resistant to infection. Perhaps in a few hundred years, everyone who's left will carry this variation. Since we've been really stupid about agricultural use of antibiotics, we may get to see selection for resistance to a lot of bacterial diseases that we thought we'd gotten rid of with antibiotics.

The hard part is predicting what genetic variations will turn out to be advantageous 10 generations from now. But, since we know that Mutations Happen, we can be pretty certain that we'll always have lots of genetic diversity for selection to act on.

[seen da light]

GOD CREATED THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH

firstly, if there was any substantial proof of evolution in the first place? everyone is so hyped up about Christians proving it wrong. I'm asking someone to prove it correct!!!!

surely if there was any substantial proof, we should be drowning in it!!!
if there was substantial proof, we wouldn't even be debating it.

Hope you also see the light
God bless

[jwu]

GOD CREATED THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH Razz

Evolution does not equal atheism. Infact the majority of christians are theistic evolutionists.

firstly, if there was any substantial proof of evolution in the first place?

First off, there is no such thing as "proof" in science. It's all about evidence, but evidence does not equal proof.

everyone is so hyped up about Christians proving it wrong.

Actually i have yet to see any Christian actually proving it wrong.

I'm asking someone to prove it correct!!!!

Ok...what would you accept as sufficient evidence for evolution? Hpw about genetic evidence which is extremely unlikely to have occured without evolution? How about observed instances of speciation?

surely if there was any substantial proof, we should be drowning in it!!!

We actually do drown in evidence.

if there was substantial proof, we wouldn't even be debating it.

And in fact among the scientific community there is no debate about whether evolution occurs anymore. Pretty much everyone who rejects evolution does so only for religious reasons.