Threat or Warning? Moral or Immoral?

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A Troubled Man
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Threat or Warning? Moral or Immoral?

Post #1

Post by A Troubled Man »

TG123 wrote:
I'm not threatening you, I'm giving you some good advice. Take it or leave it.
TG123 wrote: ...God created both heaven and hell. Those who put their faith in Him will go to heaven, those who reject Him will go to hell. Yes, I believe God is moral in everything He does, so that would include in creating both hell and heaven.
Is the "advice" we get from believers threats or warnings regarding Heaven and Hell?

Is it moral or immoral for believers to reiterate their "advice" to others?

Would you conclude the "advice" is reason to reject any religion that offers it?

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Re: Threat or Warning? Moral or Immoral?

Post #51

Post by Sonofason »

A Troubled Man wrote:
Sonofason wrote:
I'm here for no other reason than to keep you honest.
Sorry, but the fact that you've ignored the purported existence of all the other gods claimed by theists throughout history in your blue sky analogy does not show any honesty whatsoever.
You are quite deceived if you think that I care whether or not you think I'm honest or not. Honestly, you're opinion of me means absolutely nothing to me. The last thing on my mind here is deception. And as I said, I couldn't care less if you believe me or not. I know that what I say to you cannot be understood by you. People like you only see what you want to see. All atheists are closed minded. After all who else could believe something so strongly as you do without a shred of evidence to support your belief if they weren't closed minded? You believe there is no God. You are wrong.

There is only one God.

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Re: Threat or Warning? Moral or Immoral?

Post #52

Post by A Troubled Man »

Sonofason wrote:
You are quite deceived if you think that I care whether or not you think I'm honest or not. Honestly, you're opinion of me means absolutely nothing to me.
I totally get that, you don't need to convince me.
The last thing on my mind here is deception. And as I said, I couldn't care less if you believe me or not. I know that what I say to you cannot be understood by you. People like you only see what you want to see. All atheists are closed minded. After all who else could believe something so strongly as you do without a shred of evidence to support your belief if they weren't closed minded? You believe there is no God. You are wrong.

There is only one God.
Yes, and you make that claim while ignoring every other god purported to exist with followers who say exactly the same thing as you. You also make the claim without a shred of evidence, basing it entirely on blind faith alone.

If I didn't want to see a god, yet one appeared in front of me and everyone else, we would have little choice but to accept it, just like we have little choice to accept the affects of gravity as we saunter off tall buildings.

True, I have no hard evidence to support the claim that your god does not exist, but it is exactly the same amount of evidence you possess to show your god exists.

Yes, what you say is easily understood even if it's not valid or credible.

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Re: Threat or Warning? Moral or Immoral?

Post #53

Post by Sonofason »

[Replying to post 52 by A Troubled Man]

Sonofason wrote:
The last thing on my mind here is deception. And as I said, I couldn't care less if you believe me or not. I know that what I say to you cannot be understood by you. People like you only see what you want to see. All atheists are closed minded. After all who else could believe something so strongly as you do without a shred of evidence to support your belief if they weren't closed minded? You believe there is no God. You are wrong.

There is only one God.
A Troubled Man wrote:
Yes, and you make that claim while ignoring every other god purported to exist with followers who say exactly the same thing as you. You also make the claim without a shred of evidence, basing it entirely on blind faith alone.
No, you are not thinking this through at all. I have never once suggested that Allah is not God. Nor have I ever suggested that Zeus is not God. I am telling you, there is only one God. You figure it out. I know that even in the world of Christianity there are various and often contradicting beliefs of men. I think it is you atheists who always bring up the fact that there are, I don't know, some 2,000 denominations of Christianity. It is not that one of them is right, and all the others are wrong. But ALL of them are mostly wrong. And I can tell you with all certainty, that this is not God's problem. It is a problem in man. The pride of man is a tremendous stumbling block that prevents ALL men from truly understanding God. We get what we get from God, and we feel compelled to say so much more, because what we have truly gotten seems so little. But that is not to say that we haven't gotten something. It just isn't enough. It's never enough. So I am not telling you that all these supposed different gods are indeed different gods. I don't know much about them. I know the one God who exists, and I discovered Him in Christianity. I am not telling you you can't find Him some other way. But I am telling you that you can find Him in Christ.

You have no evidence to support your claim that God does not exist. Suggesting to me that there are numerous religions in the world only proves my point. God is apparent to the world. The point is, you have absolutely no reason to dis-believe in God; yet you do. That is BLIND FAITH. I on the other hand do have faith, but it is not blind faith at all. My faith is based on experience. I have experienced God, and so I have faith in God. I have faith in what I experience. I got up out of bed this morning because I experienced the light coming through my window. Was it blind faith? Of course not. I saw the light and so I got out of bed. I experience God. Believe me or not. Either way it is no loss to me.

I have faith in God, not because I have no evidence of Him, but because I do. I am confident that God is real because I experience Him. I trust in Him because I know Him. That is my faith in God. It is confidence and it is trust in Him; not blind faith like that of an atheists whose faith in the absence of something is based on an utter lack of evidence.



A Troubled Man Wrote:
If I didn't want to see a god, yet one appeared in front of me and everyone else, we would have little choice but to accept it, just like we have little choice to accept the affects of gravity as we saunter off tall buildings.
The cause of my faith in God is very similar to your example here. Indeed when you begin to fall from gravity, it's hard to escape the reality of gravity. When you've been touched first hand by the love of God, you cannot escape the reality of the love of God. But you keep telling me that I don't experience God. And so I have little reason to believe that you do indeed experience gravity. Please prove to me that you experience something called gravity. How do I know you're not just delusional?

A Troubled Man writes:
True, I have no hard evidence to support the claim that your god does not exist, but it is exactly the same amount of evidence you possess to show your god exists.
Let's back up a bit, shall we. You here admit that you have NO evidence to support your claim that my God does not exist. Yet you believe it. Let's be clear, you have no evidence to show me, and you have no evidence yourself, to support your claim that there is no God.

That is not where I am friend. I have evidence of God. I believe in God because of the evidence I have received. But it is true, none of my experience of God can I share with you. I just can't pull my experience out of my back pocket to show you. If I should explain my experience of God to a believer, he would surely understand. Because he would have experienced something similar of God, and so my story would be quite believable to them. But not to you. You have no experience of God, and so your ego is telling you that you are as good as any one else, and so if there is a God, surely, He'd speak to me too. But that hasn't been the case has it. You've been left out of the evidence locker. You've been shut out. You are an outcast in the realms of God. Not my problem.

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Post #54

Post by otseng »

Sonofason wrote: You are quite deceived if you think that I care whether or not you think I'm honest or not. Honestly, you're opinion of me means absolutely nothing to me. The last thing on my mind here is deception. And as I said, I couldn't care less if you believe me or not. I know that what I say to you cannot be understood by you. People like you only see what you want to see. All atheists are closed minded. After all who else could believe something so strongly as you do without a shred of evidence to support your belief if they weren't closed minded?
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Re: Threat or Warning? Moral or Immoral?

Post #55

Post by A Troubled Man »

Sonofason wrote:
No, you are not thinking this through at all. I have never once suggested that Allah is not God. Nor have I ever suggested that Zeus is not God. I am telling you, there is only one God. You figure it out.
It's simple to figure out, you have chosen to believe one of the god myths amongst the many purported throughout history and ignore all the rest. I totally get that.
I know that even in the world of Christianity there are various and often contradicting beliefs of men. I think it is you atheists who always bring up the fact that there are, I don't know, some 2,000 denominations of Christianity.
Actually, there are over 38,000 Christian denominations that will attest and support the contradictions.
It is not that one of them is right, and all the others are wrong. But ALL of them are mostly wrong.
And, yours is right, yeah, I get that, too.
And I can tell you with all certainty, that this is not God's problem. It is a problem in man.
Agreed, it is a problem that has plagued mankind for centuries, has started wars and continues to cause conflict and grief throughout the world.
The pride of man is a tremendous stumbling block that prevents ALL men from truly understanding God.
And, of course, that would be YOUR personal understanding of God.
So I am not telling you that all these supposed different gods are indeed different gods. I don't know much about them.
That admittance would most definitely show bias on your part.
I know the one God who exists, and I discovered Him in Christianity. I am not telling you you can't find Him some other way. But I am telling you that you can find Him in Christ.
That is highly doubtful.
You have no evidence to support your claim that God does not exist.
So what? You have no evidence to show He does exist. You also have no evidence to show all the other gods don't exist, either.

What exactly is your point?
Suggesting to me that there are numerous religions in the world only proves my point. God is apparent to the world.
Since you have already admitted to not knowing much about other gods, I can conclude your confirmation bias, considering all those other gods have completely different scriptures and messages delivered to the masses. If you actually took the time to research other gods, you'd know that, too.
The point is, you have absolutely no reason to dis-believe in God; yet you do. That is BLIND FAITH.
:lol: Says the kettle to the pot.
I on the other hand do have faith, but it is not blind faith at all. My faith is based on experience. I have experienced God, and so I have faith in God. I have faith in what I experience. I got up out of bed this morning because I experienced the light coming through my window. Was it blind faith?
So, the light coming through your window was God as opposed to a collection of photons.
Of course not. I saw the light and so I got out of bed. I experience God. Believe me or not. Either way it is no loss to me.
It is obvious that one could not believe something so absurd.
I have faith in God, not because I have no evidence of Him, but because I do. I am confident that God is real because I experience Him. I trust in Him because I know Him. That is my faith in God. It is confidence and it is trust in Him; not blind faith like that of an atheists whose faith in the absence of something is based on an utter lack of evidence.
Yet, you have offered nothing but blind faith. Where is your evidence other than a collection of photons traveling through your window?
The cause of my faith in God is very similar to your example here. Indeed when you begin to fall from gravity, it's hard to escape the reality of gravity. When you've been touched first hand by the love of God, you cannot escape the reality of the love of God. But you keep telling me that I don't experience God. And so I have little reason to believe that you do indeed experience gravity. Please prove to me that you experience something called gravity. How do I know you're not just delusional?
Asking absurd questions does not an argument make. Jump off any cliff or tall building and you too will experience the result of gravity and most certainly, up to point of splattering on the ground below will you understand the "delusion" of gravity.

Gravity is an experience every person on the planet cannot escape, yet they won't experience your God.
Let's back up a bit, shall we. You here admit that you have NO evidence to support your claim that my God does not exist. Yet you believe it. Let's be clear, you have no evidence to show me, and you have no evidence yourself, to support your claim that there is no God.
You have no evidence to support your Gods existence. But, YOU are the one making the positive claim, not me.
That is not where I am friend. I have evidence of God.
No, you don't. If you did, we would all observe it, too.
I believe in God because of the evidence I have received. But it is true, none of my experience of God can I share with you. I just can't pull my experience out of my back pocket to show you.
Exactly, which is why your so-called experiences cannot be distinguished from delusion or mental illness.
If I should explain my experience of God to a believer, he would surely understand. Because he would have experienced something similar of God, and so my story would be quite believable to them.
That is false considering we observe arguments between many believers here in that regard, far more than we see any agreement.

Don't forget about the 38,000 denominations of Christianity.
You have no experience of God, and so your ego is telling you that you are as good as any one else, and so if there is a God, surely, He'd speak to me too. But that hasn't been the case has it. You've been left out of the evidence locker. You've been shut out. You are an outcast in the realms of God. Not my problem.
Yes, I can understand how one can consider themselves "special" that they have experienced God while the rest of us have been "shut out, outcasts". That is exactly what we expect and observe from the delusional and mentally disturbed.

Of course, we also understand that God would never leave anyone out, not matter what. He would make sure we all had God experiences and that we would most certainly be able to acknowledge them and be able to distinguish them from delusions.

We have to wonder though, why God has cursed so many with mental disorders that they are unable to distinguish reality from fantasy.

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Re: Threat or Warning? Moral or Immoral?

Post #56

Post by Sonofason »

A Troubled Man wrote:
Sonofason wrote:
No, you are not thinking this through at all. I have never once suggested that Allah is not God. Nor have I ever suggested that Zeus is not God. I am telling you, there is only one God. You figure it out.
It's simple to figure out, you have chosen to believe one of the god myths amongst the many purported throughout history and ignore all the rest. I totally get that.
I know that even in the world of Christianity there are various and often contradicting beliefs of men. I think it is you atheists who always bring up the fact that there are, I don't know, some 2,000 denominations of Christianity.
Actually, there are over 38,000 Christian denominations that will attest and support the contradictions.
It is not that one of them is right, and all the others are wrong. But ALL of them are mostly wrong.
And, yours is right, yeah, I get that, too.
And I can tell you with all certainty, that this is not God's problem. It is a problem in man.
Agreed, it is a problem that has plagued mankind for centuries, has started wars and continues to cause conflict and grief throughout the world.
The pride of man is a tremendous stumbling block that prevents ALL men from truly understanding God.
And, of course, that would be YOUR personal understanding of God.
So I am not telling you that all these supposed different gods are indeed different gods. I don't know much about them.
That admittance would most definitely show bias on your part.
I know the one God who exists, and I discovered Him in Christianity. I am not telling you you can't find Him some other way. But I am telling you that you can find Him in Christ.
That is highly doubtful.
You have no evidence to support your claim that God does not exist.
So what? You have no evidence to show He does exist. You also have no evidence to show all the other gods don't exist, either.

What exactly is your point?
Suggesting to me that there are numerous religions in the world only proves my point. God is apparent to the world.
Since you have already admitted to not knowing much about other gods, I can conclude your confirmation bias, considering all those other gods have completely different scriptures and messages delivered to the masses. If you actually took the time to research other gods, you'd know that, too.
The point is, you have absolutely no reason to dis-believe in God; yet you do. That is BLIND FAITH.
:lol: Says the kettle to the pot.
I on the other hand do have faith, but it is not blind faith at all. My faith is based on experience. I have experienced God, and so I have faith in God. I have faith in what I experience. I got up out of bed this morning because I experienced the light coming through my window. Was it blind faith?
So, the light coming through your window was God as opposed to a collection of photons.
Of course not. I saw the light and so I got out of bed. I experience God. Believe me or not. Either way it is no loss to me.
It is obvious that one could not believe something so absurd.
I have faith in God, not because I have no evidence of Him, but because I do. I am confident that God is real because I experience Him. I trust in Him because I know Him. That is my faith in God. It is confidence and it is trust in Him; not blind faith like that of an atheists whose faith in the absence of something is based on an utter lack of evidence.
Yet, you have offered nothing but blind faith. Where is your evidence other than a collection of photons traveling through your window?
The cause of my faith in God is very similar to your example here. Indeed when you begin to fall from gravity, it's hard to escape the reality of gravity. When you've been touched first hand by the love of God, you cannot escape the reality of the love of God. But you keep telling me that I don't experience God. And so I have little reason to believe that you do indeed experience gravity. Please prove to me that you experience something called gravity. How do I know you're not just delusional?
Asking absurd questions does not an argument make. Jump off any cliff or tall building and you too will experience the result of gravity and most certainly, up to point of splattering on the ground below will you understand the "delusion" of gravity.

Gravity is an experience every person on the planet cannot escape, yet they won't experience your God.
Let's back up a bit, shall we. You here admit that you have NO evidence to support your claim that my God does not exist. Yet you believe it. Let's be clear, you have no evidence to show me, and you have no evidence yourself, to support your claim that there is no God.
You have no evidence to support your Gods existence. But, YOU are the one making the positive claim, not me.
That is not where I am friend. I have evidence of God.
No, you don't. If you did, we would all observe it, too.
I believe in God because of the evidence I have received. But it is true, none of my experience of God can I share with you. I just can't pull my experience out of my back pocket to show you.
Exactly, which is why your so-called experiences cannot be distinguished from delusion or mental illness.
If I should explain my experience of God to a believer, he would surely understand. Because he would have experienced something similar of God, and so my story would be quite believable to them.
That is false considering we observe arguments between many believers here in that regard, far more than we see any agreement.

Don't forget about the 38,000 denominations of Christianity.
You have no experience of God, and so your ego is telling you that you are as good as any one else, and so if there is a God, surely, He'd speak to me too. But that hasn't been the case has it. You've been left out of the evidence locker. You've been shut out. You are an outcast in the realms of God. Not my problem.
Yes, I can understand how one can consider themselves "special" that they have experienced God while the rest of us have been "shut out, outcasts". That is exactly what we expect and observe from the delusional and mentally disturbed.

Of course, we also understand that God would never leave anyone out, not matter what. He would make sure we all had God experiences and that we would most certainly be able to acknowledge them and be able to distinguish them from delusions.

We have to wonder though, why God has cursed so many with mental disorders that they are unable to distinguish reality from fantasy.
Dishonesty is not a virtue. The sooner one faces up to that, the sooner he'll be on his way to becoming a more honorable man. I have no time for lies and deceit.

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Post #57

Post by Bust Nak »

Late reply.
Sustaining evil for ever would mean God was evil.
Sustaining life for ever would mean God was loving. It's just a matter of perspective.
Ultimately God will separate good and evil. For now we put up with evil so more can be saved by grace like I was.
So by your original analogy, would you call a parent who knowingly puts his children in danger, by allowing peadophiles in his house, for the reason that a number of those peadophiles will eventually change their ways, a good parent? I would call him a irresponsible one.
I'm actually not sure that changes the equation. Warning people to change from their evil is what a good merciful God would do. Eventually for God to be good the 'piano' has to drop on evil. It seems like a logical statement to me.
Of course it changes the equation, it is the difference between a warning and a threat.
We do this all the time in society. We arrest a juvenile and give them a lighter sentence or a warning. But if they don't change one day the law drops on them in full.
That we do. Jail time is definitely a threat as opposed to a warning.

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Post #58

Post by Nickman »

A Troubled Man wrote:
Wootah wrote:
We are all evil / have sinned. Easily recognisable.
We are not evil, we are compassionate and altruistic by nature.

If you believe you are evil, then you will begin behaving that way.
If we keep thinking that we are evil, then we will be. This pessimism leads to evil behavior. Nice post TM.

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Re: Threat or Warning? Moral or Immoral?

Post #59

Post by Jack Stoddart »

Sonofason wrote:
I think it is you atheists who always bring up the fact that there are, I don't know, some 2,000 denominations of Christianity.
In fact it is catholicism:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13674a.htm
The recognition by the Church of the sects which sprang up in the course of her history would necessarily have been fatal to herself and to any consistent religious organization. From the time when Jewish and pagan elements threatened the purity of her doctrine to the days of modernistic errors, her history would have been but one long accommodation to new and sometimes contradictory opinions. Gnosticism, Manichæism, Arianism in the earlier days and Albigensianism, Hussitism, and Protestantism of later date, to mention only a few heresies, would have called for equal recognition. The different parties into which the sects usually split soon after their separation from the Mother Church would have been entitled in their turn to similar consideration. Not only Lutheranism, Calvinism, and Zwinglianism, but all the countless sects springing from them would have had to be looked upon as equally capable of leading men to Christ and salvation. The present existence of 168 Christian denominations in the United States alone sufficiently illustrates this contention. A Church adopting such a policy of universal approval is not liberal but indifferent; it does not lead but follows and cannot be said to have a teaching mission among men.

More:
The disastrous results of the many divisions among Christians are keenly felt today and the longing for union is manifest. The manner, however, in which the desired result may be attained is not clear to non-Catholics. Manysee the solution in undogmatic Christianity or undenominationalism. The points of disagreement, they believe, ought to be overlooked and a common basis for union thus obtained. Hence they advocate the relegation of doctrinal differences to the background and attempt to rear a united Christianity chiefly on a moral basis. This plan, however, rests on a false assumption; for its minimizes, in an unwarranted degree, the importance of the right teaching and sound belief and thus tends to transform Christianity into a mere ethical code.
Whatever Christianity is, it is not ethical:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm
England's grandeur during the same epoch is due to the same cause as that of Spain: the impulse given to all national forces by the discovery of the New World. Both Spain and England began by securing religious unity. In Spain the Inquisition at a small cost of human life preserved the old faith; in England the infinitely more cruel penal laws stamped out all opposition to the innovations imported from Germany

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Post #60

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 57 by Bust Nak]
Sustaining life for ever would mean God was loving. It's just a matter of perspective.
As life currently is, unless this is a grace period as understood by Christian ideology, we can only conclude God is evil.
So by your original analogy, would you call a parent who knowingly puts his children in danger, by allowing paedophiles in his house, for the reason that a number of those paedophiles will eventually change their ways, a good parent? I would call him a irresponsible one.
God allows us all to be born in the same house and some of us do bad things. Should we each be created in our own separate universe?
Of course it changes the equation, it is the difference between a warning and a threat.
Is there a difference between a warning and a threat?

That we do. Jail time is definitely a threat as opposed to a warning.
Jail is not a threat, it is a punishment.

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