Suicide

[Suzy]

I have excellent health and a long way to go yet before I jump of this mortal coil.
But I am going to finish my own life when or if my life is no longer enjoyable, no longer worth living and when I know it will never get better. For instance chronic pain and knowing it will get worse with no hope of relief from drugs. This can happen at any time in life so I have already thought of it. [Yes, I know I’m weird]

I am an atheist so my logic tells me that death itself is O.K. [but not necessarily getting there] I was not here for millions of years before I was born and I was fine with that. It was a breeze!

A point I should mention here is the means used to ‘end it all’ I will keep that to myself for obvious reasons but it will be painless and 100% successful. [Not jumping under a train because I am a coward and also someone has to clear all the mess up]

So to the point and I would like your views on it. What about our love ones. Some say it’s selfish to take your own life because of what you do to them. I say it’s selfish of them if they don’t let you go if you are suffering.
Me being me I have already cleared it with my family [all atheists] so I am good to go.

[Wissing]

You have a valid (ie self-consistent) argument. I maintain that your Epicurean premises are objectively wrong. Not illogical. Just wrong.

Unfortunately, arguments cannot establish soundness. That's what experience is for.

So, if you ever find that the logical answer still doesn't sit right with you, I would urge you to consider going back to the drawing board. You can make a conscious decision to pursue new experiences, and gain a fresh worldview. Then reason from a different starting point, and you may find an answer that is just as logical, but also moves you, gives you hope and has a positive effect on those around you.

Is there anything specific in your life that you feel would be right for you to do (or stop doing), but that you can't think of a good reason to act upon?

[Suzy]

[Replying to post 51 by Wissing]

What an interesting conversation [not an argument I hope] that we are having Wissing. How nice it would be to sit over a coffee and have a one to one chat together sometime.

Its clear that logic is the key to my argument here. But you are suggesting I move away from [my?] logic and look for alternative logic[s]? Move away from what I have established in my mind as fact through thinking logically and go looking for a new outlook or belief?
This is of course another way of saying ‘keep an open mind’ and I will always do that. But I am not going to ‘go back to the drawing board’ unless I have good reason to and you haven’t given me one on the subject of suicide yet. For example I am an atheist and will remain and atheist till I die. But if real evidence comes along that God exists then I will ‘go back to that drawing board’ without hesitation. In other words I will have good reason to go back and re think my atheism, my logic.
A logical answer will always ‘sit right’ with me because its logical! How simple can this point be?

I don’t understand your question at the end Wissing. Could you clarify this for me please.

[Wissing]

[Replying to post 52 by Suzy]

Here's a reason. Suicide is wrong, and your worldview is trying to come up with a way to justify it. Something isn't right here. I mean, you could think you're suffering but not be. You could make a life and death decision based on incomplete knowledge. Subjective morals are dangerous. The bottom could fall out at any minute.

My last question - I guess I'm not asking the right thing. Nevermind. What I'm trying to get at is this... tell me about your experiences. What events have led you to the worldview you have? There's no point in talking about "logic" since we're clearly starting on different ground. So instead, talk about what got you to your underlying premises.

[Suzy]

[Replying to post 53 by Wissing]

I don’t have to justify anything? I am an atheist. I don’t need to answer to anybody for my actions. I am just an intelligent ape on a small planet, nothing more.

And how could I think I was suffering and not be? You are making no sense?

So I have to explain to you without using logic what got me to the point where I have decided to take my own life if it gets to the point of not worth living and there is no hope of improvement? That’s impossible because I live my life logically. I have no time for being illogical because it leads to things like believing in religion for example.

Lets try again by using a scenario.
I am now old and feeble. I have come home from my doctor having been told that my cancer is incurable and I will need to go into a home, be on powerful pain killers and my family will see me go from the loving wife and mother I am to a shell of my former self.
There is only one argument against my deciding to take my own life in such circumstances and that is its wrong in the eyes of God! Something which does not apply to me thankfully.

[Goat]

[Replying to post 53 by Wissing]

I don’t have to justify anything? I am an atheist. I don’t need to answer to anybody for my actions. I am just an intelligent ape on a small planet, nothing more.

And how could I think I was suffering and not be? You are making no sense?

So I have to explain to you without using logic what got me to the point where I have decided to take my own life if it gets to the point of not worth living and there is no hope of improvement? That’s impossible because I live my life logically. I have no time for being illogical because it leads to things like believing in religion for example.

Lets try again by using a scenario.
I am now old and feeble. I have come home from my doctor having been told that my cancer is incurable and I will need to go into a home, be on powerful pain killers and my family will see me go from the loving wife and mother I am to a shell of my former self.
There is only one argument against my deciding to take my own life in such circumstances and that is its wrong in the eyes of God! Something which does not apply to me thankfully.

I think there are many variables.. and in this scenario, 'old and feeble' and 'incurable and in pain', then, it seems that suicide, (depending on how its done), is much more dignfied than withering.

[Suzy]

[Replying to post 53 by Wissing]

I don’t have to justify anything? I am an atheist. I don’t need to answer to anybody for my actions. I am just an intelligent ape on a small planet, nothing more.

And how could I think I was suffering and not be? You are making no sense?

So I have to explain to you without using logic what got me to the point where I have decided to take my own life if it gets to the point of not worth living and there is no hope of improvement? That’s impossible because I live my life logically. I have no time for being illogical because it leads to things like believing in religion for example.

Lets try again by using a scenario.
I am now old and feeble. I have come home from my doctor having been told that my cancer is incurable and I will need to go into a home, be on powerful pain killers and my family will see me go from the loving wife and mother I am to a shell of my former self.
There is only one argument against my deciding to take my own life in such circumstances and that is its wrong in the eyes of God! Something which does not apply to me thankfully.

I think there are many variables.. and in this scenario, 'old and feeble' and 'incurable and in pain', then, it seems that suicide, (depending on how its done), is much more dignfied than withering.

To wither or not to wither, that is the question.

[Wissing]

It's one thing to let yourself die of causes out of your control. It's another to make it happen intentionally. If you think there's no difference, here's another hypothetical for you: if someone you loved was dying of an incurable disease, would you do them the favor of putting them down yourself, or would you put it on them?

Of course, there's no point in dealing in hypotheticals neither of us could possibly understand. Unless of course you have any real life experience you'd like to share. I'm serious about that. I want to hear your story! Logic is just a meaningless word without experience to ground it.

[Suzy]

[Replying to post 57 by Wissing]


What’s not to understand about the hypothetical situations we have used here?
To say ‘ there's no point in dealing in hypothetical’s neither of us could possibly understand’ is to say I am as blinkered as you are to the real world, to reality, to be able to use logic to overcome the illogical. I don’t mean that in a derogatory way, I am just saying it as I see it.

A hypothetical example, A truck is hurtling towards me, what do I do? I can’t possibly understand this ‘hypothetical situation' can I you say. So I can’t say if I would jump out of the way or not?
I am talking to someone that seems to be seeing reality in a different way to me. I suspect its because you see the world from a religious aspect and therefore we will never agree on this.

There is a scene in a film were a man is being burned to death my Indians. I think it was ‘the last of the Mohicans 1992’ and his friend seeing what was happening and with no hope of saving his friend leveled his riffle, took aim, and shot him dead.
I too would have pulled the trigger. What would you have done, let him suffer a slow death by burning?
I await your answer.

[Wissing]

Well, I have no idea what I would have done in that situation. That's my whole point. I don't think you actually know either. If that actually happened to you, there's no telling what would happen. If we're talking about reality, let's use real examples, not movies.

There have been times in my life when I felt like there was no point in my being here. I didn't have a lot of friends in middle school, for instance. I was rather depressed about it. Now, had I subscribed to your philosophy, I may well have done the "logical" thing at that time and offed myself. But I didn't - and looking back, it wouldn't have been logical at all. Suicide is only logical from a corrupt worldview. I now have little respect for the depression of the kids of the wealthy, including my own. All those kids need is for someone to put them to work, doing something useful. It just bugs me to death that people actually kill themselves because they're too spoiled. I see this everywhere! Rich kids get into drugs, and end up dying of boredom, or turning into nihilists who endure only out of a masochistic self-pity.

And somebody posted a few pages ago with a true to life example of actually being in the position you mention in the OP. What good are these a priori hypotheticals in the face of logic that is based on a posteriori knowledge?

[Suzy]

[Replying to post 59 by Wissing]

O.K. I will bring the argument back to one simple fact. I personally will say goodbye world if or when I no longer think life is worth living because I am suffering too much without hope of relief form the suffering. That’s my point, my decision take it or leave it.

You use strange terminology. You talk about suicide as ‘offering myself’ Surely this indicates you are deeply religious? So we are from the opposite side of the argument here as I am an atheist. We will never agree.

It was you that made the hypothetical point ‘if someone you loved was dying of an incurable disease, would you do them the favour of putting them down yourself?’ I answered it with the perfectly good example in the film but nope, you would not give me a straight answer. [So you would leave a friend that you loved to suffer horribly when you could give him relief from his suffering? How cruel is that!]

And to make comments about me like ‘I don’t think you know either’ suggesting that you know me better than I know myself is just silly and the end of this debate with you my friend. How can anyone debate with someone that tells you things about yourself that even you did not know and happen to be untrue anyway!

Have a nice life,

Suzy